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this program is brought to you by the

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[Music]

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you're in the paracast

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the gold standard of paranormal radio

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and now

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first and foremost neighbors we've

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free book with a trial offer at

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audible.com powercast

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now our listeners may have noticed last

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week that chris o'brien didn't sound too

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terrific and the reason is

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he was suffering from

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a lung problem apparently copd it's not

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a trivial thing it's a pretty serious

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ailment and the flu in a couple of days

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after we did the recording session he

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went to the hospital for treatment which

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was a good idea get the doctor the

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chance to

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have at it there and see what's going on

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with him and to

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help him on the road to recovery so he's

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still in the hospital as we do this show

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and he is sounding better to me he is

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recovering he's raring to go so

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hopefully he'll be back on the show next

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week or the week thereafter so we all

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wish the best get well chris o'brien in

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the meantime we have a guest co-host and

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we have i guess we'll call him a guest

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moderator or a panelist we have erica

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luke's

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joining us this week again

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after being

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i'm excited now if chris wasn't here

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last week you would have had to have

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interviewed yourself well that could

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have been quite interesting especially

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if you disagreed

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well i'll leave that to you

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that's why you needed to be there right

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and direct from his palatial estate in

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scotland

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that'll be me cogs makai yeah um and i

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was just going to say that

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my own father has copd he's actually in

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hospital right now too

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and i had a friend who smoked a lot died

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from it a couple of years ago but he had

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it like really bad so it is a serious

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thing and i'm glad that chris is in

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hospital getting the right treatment

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that's one of the things that took down

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leonard nimoy

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you know copd

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that's right right he was also a

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lifelong smoker let it be a warning to

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you anyone in our crew here and that

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means you too special guest kevin

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randall

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any of you smoke i used to smoke lz's

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but that was in vietnam and i used to

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smoke so that really doesn't count

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i used to smoke but i switched to the

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electronic ones um seven years ago and

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i've never smoked tobacco since not even

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once

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does that make a difference does that

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help your lungs well it's oh absolutely

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i i felt the difference just within a

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few short weeks you know i i couldn't

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expect rate you know cough up anything

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even if i tried just now my lungs are

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clear that's great yeah the closest i

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came was as a teenager and i gave it up

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real fast i won't say i didn't smoke

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anything

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i'll leave the definition of that

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depending on whether you live in a state

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where it's legal

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interesting

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isn't it

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it is

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so let's move on here we asked kevin

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randle to come on because he recently

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wrote a book called roswell in the 21st

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century and he kind of previewed that

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book the last time he was on the show

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last year and we thought it's time to

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maybe put the wraps on roswell once and

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for all

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because this has gone on for so many

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years and it appears to be less

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than we expected to be okay but kevin

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before we start with that and there'll

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be a lot of questions from listeners as

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we progress

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and we should reacquaint people with the

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legend very briefly real briefly and

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that is we're talking about a case here

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that after the initial publicity oh it's

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a flying disc oh it's a balloon it kind

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of dies down and wasn't rediscovered

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until over 30 years later

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well that's not quite right because

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there had been mentions of the roswell

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case in various books

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over the years after 1947. frank edwards

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in flying sausage serious business

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business which was published in 1965 has

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two or three paragraphs about it and he

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got practically everything wrong other

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than the name roswell and that the air

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force had explained it as a balloon

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so there were mentions of the case but

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it sort of broke open

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after jesse marcel who was the air

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intelligence officer in roswell in 1947

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was telling friends on his

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the cb radios shortwave radio his hand

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pals

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that he had picked up pieces of a flying

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saucer and through that that information

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got to stan friedman friedman talked to

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marcel and

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for over a year didn't do anything with

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it because they didn't have a good date

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for it and bill moore

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found a picture of marcel in the

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newspapers in 1947 and from there they

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kind of put together a short book

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the roswell incident on the thing and it

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kind of grew out of that until an awful

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lot of us were looking at the roswell

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case thinking that this may be the one

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that substantiates alien visitation and

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it seemed to be a very robust case with

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lots of witnesses and lots of things

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going on so it was a very important case

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in the early 1990s uh up through about

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the end end of the decade end of the

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century end of the millennium

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it just went on and on and as you

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mentioned i don't make a big deal of the

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frank edwards book because

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it really wasn't noticed then you had to

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have the contact with marcel later on

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it's just another case mentioned a few

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paragraphs in somebody's ufo book and to

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be very frank i knew slightly frank

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edwards in the last year or two of his

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life

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and he wasn't really a crack researcher

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he was a storyteller right

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yes he got a lot of details wrong in his

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books i think he wrote basically from

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memory and he didn't bother to check to

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see if his memory was right but there

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were other mentions of the roswell case

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periodically lydia slepi who was a

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teletype operator

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at the radio station in albuquerque who

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was talking to johnny mcboyle when he

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was feeding her the story of the roswell

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crash and received the information that

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uh you know to stop this transmission

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that appeared in a magazine article in

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1976 for example so there were little

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bits and pieces of

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of it scattered around but nobody was

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really looking at it especially when you

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start talking about a ufo crash if you

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remember

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back in the 1950s there was a book

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called behind the flying saucers which

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alleged a crash in aztec new mexico in

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1948 and that was thoroughly debunked in

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the 1950s right after the the story had

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come out and almost every ufologist just

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didn't even want to listen to stories of

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ufo crashes it just that didn't happen

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they weren't interested and it was

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actually len stringfield

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who had begun researching other tales of

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ufo crashes

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quietly behind the scenes and he did a

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paper i think it was in 1978 as a matter

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of fact talking about some of these ufo

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crashes that he'd heard about

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and saying that maybe we got to look at

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these things a little more closely and

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he had talked to marcel

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as well

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although in the paper there's no mention

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of the marcel case in the presentation

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he gave in i think was ohio for the

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mufun symposium

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that had been added to his presentation

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so there were those things going on i'm

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not sure that the roswell incident made

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much of a splash either in ufology and

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it wasn't until

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the the center for ufo studies actually

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had asked friedman if there was more

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work to be done in roswell and friedman

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says yeah there's a lot of stuff that

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should be done

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and they began their investigation

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invited me into it simply because of my

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military background they thought that

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i would have a better chance of relating

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to military people i would understand

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the jargon i'd understand what they're

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talking about where a civilian who'd not

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served in the military might not be as

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cognizant of what they were what they

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were trying to say so it was after that

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point around 1990 that things began to

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blow up nbc's unsolved mysteries did a

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segment on on the roswell case so

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there's a national television program

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back in the in 1989 doing doing

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something on it so that is sort of the

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evolution so it it was talked about in

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1947 the military the government said no

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it was a weather balloon don't worry

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about it and then there were little bits

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and pieces that dribbled out until

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marcel really kind of

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started the whole thing rolling in 1978

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so we blame

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marcel for everything that happened huh

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i'm going to i think i think that's fair

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you know if he hadn't been blabbing we

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wouldn't be talking about this now

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okay but how from the point that it blew

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up what made this the case in the ufo

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field whatever you think about it every

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time we've said on the power cast i

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guess we're not going to do anything

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else

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on roswell and then guess what there's a

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new book out there's something new even

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when something ends up being a trading

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wreck like the not roswell slides an

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obvious train wreck

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we have to come back to it it remains

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fodder for pop culture it remains a key

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plot point still in the x-files even in

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the

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roswell may have involved a spaceship

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and we reverse engineered everything

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it's not the presence of aliens it's

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still

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we've got kevin randle the book is

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roswell in the 21st century our guest

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co-host is erica luke's dogs makai is a

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member of the panel you're in the

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here's a shout out to audible for

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supporting the powercast you know for a

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free audiobook with a 30 day free trial

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go to audible.com

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powercast you know audible has an

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unmatched selection of audiobooks

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original shows news comedy and lots more

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they even feature books from our

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paranormal corner of the universe such

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as the one i'm listening to right now

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fact fiction and flying saucers you know

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we had the authors on our show featuring

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stan friedman and kathleen martin once

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[Music]

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the 877-886-3653-877-886-3653 send it to

354
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355
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356
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357
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i like the way she says that why thank

358
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:35,680
you you're welcome kevin randall is

359
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joining us let me just tell you we've

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got a second radio show we'd like you to

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is it's

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color commentary

365
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sometimes a background or sometimes a

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special interview all sorts of good

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stuff and the only way to get after the

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and we also offer videos selections of

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plus.powercast.com

380
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:25,519
kevin we were dealing with the early

381
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:28,160
days when roswell was really taking off

382
00:15:33,189 --> 00:15:30,959
where did it make the jump to become

383
00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:33,199
the ufo case

384
00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:35,920
it promised everything

385
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:38,560
it promised a large number of credible

386
00:15:42,069 --> 00:15:40,639
witnesses starting with the senior staff

387
00:15:43,910 --> 00:15:42,079
at the roswell army airfield back in

388
00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:43,920
1947 and

389
00:15:48,949 --> 00:15:45,600
dribbling all the way down into the

390
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,959
lowest of the enlisted ranks it promised

391
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:50,880
a crashed flying saucer which would

392
00:15:56,870 --> 00:15:53,360
prove that there's alien visitation it

393
00:15:58,710 --> 00:15:56,880
promised uh details of the bodies the

394
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:58,720
alien creatures that had been killed in

395
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:01,120
the crash it promised everything you

396
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,639
would need to prove that alien

397
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:05,040
visitation was taking place it promised

398
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:07,519
all of that and it seemed in the

399
00:16:10,949 --> 00:16:09,040
beginning that it was going to deliver

400
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,959
on that because we were finding witness

401
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,199
after witness who had been involved in

402
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:15,600
some fashion who could talk about the

403
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,959
what the craft looked like could talk

404
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,480
about what the bodies looked like talk

405
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:20,959
about what was done where it went we

406
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:22,800
were talking to people at the highest

407
00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:24,880
levels we had general officers telling

408
00:16:29,350 --> 00:16:27,120
us about this we had colonels telling us

409
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:29,360
about this so it promised

410
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:32,079
all of this sort of information that

411
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:33,920
would prove the case once and for all

412
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:36,000
and we would be done with arguing about

413
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:37,680
whether alien visitation was taking

414
00:16:41,829 --> 00:16:39,440
place now we could take a step and say

415
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:41,839
okay we know what's happening what does

416
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:44,399
it mean what can we do about it but it

417
00:16:49,509 --> 00:16:46,560
didn't deliver on any of those promises

418
00:16:51,269 --> 00:16:49,519
but that's how it became so big kevin

419
00:16:52,150 --> 00:16:51,279
gogg's here i'd just like to jump in do

420
00:16:54,389 --> 00:16:52,160
you think

421
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:54,399
kind of what you've just said could even

422
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:57,680
be condensed down to the fact that this

423
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:00,880
was a case where there was this initial

424
00:17:05,990 --> 00:17:03,600
press release that said we have captured

425
00:17:08,069 --> 00:17:06,000
a flying saucer and forget about what

426
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:08,079
happened after and changing the stories

427
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:11,039
but that's got to be pretty unique in

428
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:13,439
the field is it that you know a military

429
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:16,000
press release that says we've got one

430
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:19,039
that hasn't promised so much from that i

431
00:17:22,949 --> 00:17:20,959
think the problem with the press release

432
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:22,959
is you have to put your mind back in

433
00:17:26,789 --> 00:17:24,480
1947

434
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:26,799
and realize that flying disc and flying

435
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:29,760
saucer was not synonymous with a alien

436
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:32,080
spacecraft if you look at the newspaper

437
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:34,400
articles that were going on in in late

438
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:37,200
june early july of 1947 there was a lot

439
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:39,120
of speculation about what these things

440
00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:42,480
really were and one of the least likely

441
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:44,000
explanations was some kind of

442
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:45,760
interplanetary craft they were thinking

443
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:47,679
they might be from venus they might be

444
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:49,360
from mars we now of course know that's

445
00:17:51,590 --> 00:17:50,320
not true

446
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:51,600
i'm not sure how you'd build a

447
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:53,840
spacecraft on venus when the surface of

448
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,760
the planet is hot enough to melt lead at

449
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:57,600
least you could do the raw ingredients

450
00:18:02,230 --> 00:18:00,320
there and just do all the molten metals

451
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,240
assemble them there and then somehow

452
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:04,559
transport them in a bucket into space

453
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,640
i'm kidding absolutely

454
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:09,039
but i think if you look at it from that

455
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:10,799
perspective that that it didn't

456
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:13,360
necessarily translate into

457
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:15,919
alien spacecraft and then you look at

458
00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:17,760
the timeline of the events they issued

459
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:20,080
the press release around two o'clock in

460
00:18:25,510 --> 00:18:23,039
the afternoon a mountain standard time

461
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:25,520
later on the east coast of course

462
00:18:29,029 --> 00:18:27,919
and then within hours literally three

463
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:29,039
hours

464
00:18:33,190 --> 00:18:31,120
the explanation in general raimi's

465
00:18:34,870 --> 00:18:33,200
office in fort worth was well no it's uh

466
00:18:37,029 --> 00:18:34,880
just a weather balloon or weather

467
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:37,039
observation device that confused some

468
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,799
people and we've now got the explanation

469
00:18:42,549 --> 00:18:40,799
and so you have a lower headquarters

470
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:42,559
which would be the 509th bomb group in

471
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:44,080
roswell issuing a press release saying

472
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,600
we have a flying disc and then the

473
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:46,880
higher headquarters coming out and say

474
00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:48,160
yeah we've looked at this it's nothing

475
00:18:51,830 --> 00:18:50,000
but a weather balloon the press release

476
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:51,840
is kind of an enigma

477
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,640
if you put it in the context of what in

478
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:56,240
the hell was the purpose of it because

479
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:57,919
all it did was generate a lot of

480
00:19:00,950 --> 00:19:00,000
problems especially for us 50 years

481
00:19:03,029 --> 00:19:00,960
later

482
00:19:04,549 --> 00:19:03,039
but i think the the press release is

483
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,559
interesting that they've got a flying

484
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:06,000
saucer but then they said well no it's

485
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:08,160
not really uh it's a weather balloon so

486
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:09,600
don't worry about that sort of thing

487
00:19:14,870 --> 00:19:11,520
there were other stories going on at the

488
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,880
time in late june early july of 1947

489
00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:17,039
about other flying saucer crashes there

490
00:19:22,230 --> 00:19:19,600
was one that came out of montana and a

491
00:19:24,470 --> 00:19:22,240
pilot who had been flying in the area of

492
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:24,480
the bitterroot mountains in montana

493
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:26,559
but was based in l.a it was telling his

494
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:29,440
boss that they had approached some yo-yo

495
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:31,520
shaped objects and one of them got

496
00:19:35,350 --> 00:19:32,640
caught in the proper wash of the

497
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:35,360
airplane and plunged to its demise in

498
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:36,799
the bitterroot mountains and a couple of

499
00:19:40,789 --> 00:19:39,039
days later that came out as a hoax

500
00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:40,799
but there's all those sorts of things

501
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:43,039
going on at the time and nobody really

502
00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:44,960
has an answer and nobody's

503
00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:46,480
i we shouldn't say nobody few people

504
00:19:51,990 --> 00:19:49,360
were talking about it being any sort of

505
00:19:53,590 --> 00:19:52,000
extraterrestrial visitation it was all

506
00:19:55,350 --> 00:19:53,600
terrestrially based for the most part

507
00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:55,360
and the greatest warrior was some kind

508
00:19:59,750 --> 00:19:58,160
of a soviet secret weapon or maybe a a

509
00:20:01,909 --> 00:19:59,760
weapon being developed by the united

510
00:20:02,789 --> 00:20:01,919
states either the army air forces or the

511
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,799
navy

512
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:04,480
that was causing the sightings and one

513
00:20:08,549 --> 00:20:06,480
psychologist or psychiatrist or a

514
00:20:10,710 --> 00:20:08,559
scientist said well the the real problem

515
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,720
is it's it's people coming out of dark

516
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:12,320
movie theaters looking up into a bright

517
00:20:16,070 --> 00:20:14,000
sky and they see spots in front of their

518
00:20:18,150 --> 00:20:16,080
eyes that's a legitimate explanation

519
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:18,160
that was printed in the newspapers

520
00:20:22,630 --> 00:20:20,799
admittedly it's a dumb one but they just

521
00:20:25,590 --> 00:20:22,640
didn't have an idea of what was going on

522
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:25,600
and alien visitation is kind of way down

523
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:27,600
at the bottom of that list

524
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:30,480
big question i have to ask you here is

525
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:32,320
and maybe this goes back to some of the

526
00:20:37,510 --> 00:20:34,799
stuff that james carrion has been

527
00:20:40,390 --> 00:20:37,520
talking about the former director of

528
00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:40,400
mufa and he was saying the ghost lights

529
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:42,240
this is a way to spook the soviets i

530
00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:44,400
guess in the early days of the soviets

531
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:46,799
and then there was the

532
00:20:51,270 --> 00:20:49,919
other issue here where he thinks i

533
00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:51,280
suspect

534
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,799
that roswell

535
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:54,799
was also something

536
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:56,880
that we did it might have been a test

537
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:58,480
aircraft or something he was going to

538
00:21:02,149 --> 00:21:00,720
have a book called the roswell deception

539
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:02,159
and i haven't seen what's going to be

540
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:04,559
that yet what that's going to be about

541
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:05,600
but

542
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:07,440
isn't that something that

543
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:08,400
would have been

544
00:21:11,590 --> 00:21:10,080
numeral uno

545
00:21:14,230 --> 00:21:11,600
to check first

546
00:21:16,549 --> 00:21:14,240
test aircraft then balloons or some

547
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,559
combination thereof well i'm not sure it

548
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:18,080
would be the first thing to check but

549
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:19,600
there's one thing that was checked i

550
00:21:22,630 --> 00:21:20,400
mean

551
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:22,640
we went to and i say wait don schmidt

552
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:24,400
and i actually physically went to white

553
00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:26,720
sands missile range and sat down with

554
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:28,320
the historians there and looked through

555
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:29,760
the records to see if it was some kind

556
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:31,440
of a missile experiment that had gone

557
00:21:34,630 --> 00:21:32,720
awry

558
00:21:37,029 --> 00:21:34,640
i think in may in 1947 they actually

559
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:37,039
dropped a missile in juarez new mexico

560
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:39,200
it got off range and fell in new mexico

561
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,240
and juarez mexico so we looked at all of

562
00:21:47,029 --> 00:21:44,400
that i have a complete list of all the

563
00:21:49,029 --> 00:21:47,039
missile launches at white sands in that

564
00:21:51,510 --> 00:21:49,039
time frame they're all accounted for so

565
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:51,520
that's not an explanation we looked for

566
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:53,120
experimental aircraft and to find

567
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:55,600
nothing that had crashed we looked at

568
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:57,280
regular military aircraft we thought

569
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:59,200
maybe it had been a

570
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:01,200
b-29 that crashed with an islamic bomb

571
00:22:07,029 --> 00:22:04,240
on board back in 1947 the atomic bombs

572
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:07,039
were actually the the shape the size was

573
00:22:10,070 --> 00:22:08,880
actually classified information you

574
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:10,080
couldn't even talk about what they

575
00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:11,440
looked like

576
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:12,720
today of course with these pictures all

577
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:14,880
over the internet to look for them they

578
00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:16,320
looked they all looked sort of like fat

579
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:17,919
man which was one of the i think bomb

580
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,280
dropped on nagasaki in 1945

581
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:23,280
but we looked at all of that we found

582
00:22:29,149 --> 00:22:26,159
stories uh i think the um the air force

583
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:29,159
dropped an atomic bomb in albuquerque in

584
00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:33,280
1957. we could find that stuff so it

585
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,200
might have been classified in the 1950s

586
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,440
but when we began our research that

587
00:22:41,430 --> 00:22:39,200
information was available we looked at

588
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:41,440
all of that sort of thing let's do our

589
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:44,080
break here and look again on the other

590
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:47,440
side we've got gox mckay and erica luks

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helping me run the show with kevin

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692
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power greens has set aside a small

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711
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[Music]

712
00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:21,440
this is robert hastings author of ufos

713
00:27:25,830 --> 00:27:23,200
and nukes and you're listening to the

714
00:27:26,370 --> 00:27:25,840
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

715
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:26,380
radio

716
00:27:37,269 --> 00:27:34,870
so the point here is kevin randall that

717
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:37,279
you looked into the possibility of

718
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:40,080
a tester aircraft you operate under the

719
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:41,440
assumption that

720
00:27:45,750 --> 00:27:43,279
anything that might have been classified

721
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:45,760
then would have been declassified

722
00:27:49,669 --> 00:27:47,600
in the intervening years so there has to

723
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:49,679
be a record of it somewhere there's no

724
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:51,600
possibility that something is just lost

725
00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:54,480
somewhere in the sands of time in a

726
00:27:58,950 --> 00:27:56,640
military base or something

727
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,960
what sort of experimental aircraft that

728
00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:00,880
would been classified in 1947's

729
00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,559
technology is so far out of date that

730
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:04,799
it's absolutely useless today

731
00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:07,679
you know the assumption is of course

732
00:28:12,149 --> 00:28:10,080
that the technology has overrun that

733
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:12,159
position and we wouldn't have to worry

734
00:28:15,990 --> 00:28:14,159
about it the air force

735
00:28:17,510 --> 00:28:16,000
if we believe them in this this respect

736
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:17,520
and i certainly do

737
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:18,960
said that they've done the same thing

738
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:20,720
looking for an alternative explanations

739
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:22,159
and they checked those same things that

740
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,960
we had and found nothing for it if

741
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:26,640
you've got some kind of an experimental

742
00:28:30,389 --> 00:28:28,080
aircraft going on there's going to be

743
00:28:32,389 --> 00:28:30,399
documentation even if one place has lost

744
00:28:33,990 --> 00:28:32,399
the documentation somebody else is going

745
00:28:35,669 --> 00:28:34,000
to have it we would we would be able to

746
00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:35,679
find it well of course that's what it

747
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:36,640
was

748
00:28:39,669 --> 00:28:38,080
we just couldn't find anything we

749
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,679
thought that maybe it was some kind of

750
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:41,679
early experiment to put people into

751
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,399
space that had gone horribly wrong and

752
00:28:48,310 --> 00:28:46,320
ended up in the deaths of the the people

753
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:48,320
involved but we couldn't find anything

754
00:28:52,389 --> 00:28:49,919
suggesting that and i'd always said that

755
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:52,399
would be a really great story to talk

756
00:28:57,909 --> 00:28:54,320
about here is this experimentation going

757
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:57,919
on in new mexico in 1947 that involved

758
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:00,320
human pilots of of rocket ships and

759
00:29:04,630 --> 00:29:02,640
missile well rocket ships we couldn't

760
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:04,640
find anything that related to that and

761
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,880
others who have checked have gone down

762
00:29:11,350 --> 00:29:09,200
the same road so there doesn't seem to

763
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:11,360
be any any terrestrial explanation that

764
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:13,679
we can find that would account for

765
00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:15,360
what fell at roswell

766
00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:17,200
so kevin let me ask you do you some

767
00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:19,279
people say that roswell was a red

768
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:21,120
herring of sorts i mean do you think

769
00:29:23,510 --> 00:29:22,080
that there

770
00:29:26,310 --> 00:29:23,520
are any other

771
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:26,320
rashes or cases that deserve to be

772
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:27,600
looked at

773
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:30,320
that took place the same time period

774
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:32,080
if you put it in the same time frame i

775
00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:34,000
don't think so we've looked at an awful

776
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:35,120
lot of that stuff and there were a lot

777
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:36,559
of these stories circulating back in

778
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:38,799
1947 1948

779
00:29:42,149 --> 00:29:40,480
aztec would be the one that that you

780
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:42,159
would gravitate toward because there was

781
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:44,000
the most information about it

782
00:29:47,830 --> 00:29:45,760
but the evidence for anything happening

783
00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:47,840
at aztec is virtually non-existent

784
00:29:51,909 --> 00:29:49,840
contrary to what some people seem to

785
00:29:53,909 --> 00:29:51,919
think in today's environment we looked

786
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:53,919
at all those sorts of things and really

787
00:29:57,510 --> 00:29:56,080
couldn't find anything the only thing

788
00:30:00,149 --> 00:29:57,520
that we could think of is some kind of a

789
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,159
psyop but but again i don't know what

790
00:30:05,269 --> 00:30:02,480
would be classified today that developed

791
00:30:07,190 --> 00:30:05,279
in 1947 i just can't wrap my head around

792
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:07,200
that because we know about some of the

793
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:09,600
the cia testing uh

794
00:30:13,510 --> 00:30:11,840
lsd on people we know about those sorts

795
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:13,520
of things in today's environment i think

796
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,799
the the they they uh flooded some subway

797
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:18,480
tunnels with lsd to see what the

798
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:20,320
reactions of the people were

799
00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:22,960
so they were doing that kind of really

800
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:25,120
unconscionable experimentation so i

801
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:26,640
can't wait wait wait flooding the

802
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:28,000
subways

803
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:33,440
new york oh that explains a lot

804
00:30:37,269 --> 00:30:35,760
yeah well there you go uh they didn't do

805
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:37,279
anything in scotland so you guys were

806
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:38,240
safe

807
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:39,840
i was going to quickly ask you kevin

808
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:42,000
what do you do you have any opinions

809
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:45,279
either way on like joseph farrell's uh

810
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:48,320
research on the nazi bell

811
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:51,279
could that be possibly the origin or

812
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,320
some kind of technology that may indeed

813
00:30:59,190 --> 00:30:56,799
still be classified if it was you know

814
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:59,200
working and used

815
00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:00,960
there's nothing that we could find that

816
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,399
links to that

817
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,399
if we found we could find absolutely

818
00:31:07,990 --> 00:31:06,159
nothing that links to that

819
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:08,000
we've lo yeah we tried to we tried to

820
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:09,919
explain this thing when we started it i

821
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:11,120
went into this thinking we're going to

822
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:12,960
go down to new mexico don schmidt and

823
00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:13,760
may

824
00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:15,520
and we're going to spend

825
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:16,640
a couple of days down there and we're

826
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:18,559
going to come back with an explanation

827
00:31:22,789 --> 00:31:20,159
the first couple of days while we're in

828
00:31:24,389 --> 00:31:22,799
roswell in new mexico it seemed to be

829
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:24,399
that was what's going to happen we were

830
00:31:27,750 --> 00:31:26,159
to meet with this great group in

831
00:31:30,070 --> 00:31:27,760
albuquerque new mexico and it turned out

832
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:30,080
to be a bunch of people who were

833
00:31:34,389 --> 00:31:32,399
way off into woo-woo land

834
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:34,399
i mean they were really gone and didn't

835
00:31:37,110 --> 00:31:36,399
have any information and we went to talk

836
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:37,120
to

837
00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:38,559
some people in roswell and their

838
00:31:42,230 --> 00:31:40,880
information wasn't all that great either

839
00:31:43,830 --> 00:31:42,240
and i'm thinking well this thing is

840
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,840
blowing up in our faces and then we

841
00:31:47,269 --> 00:31:45,600
talked to bill brazel of course the the

842
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:47,279
son of the rancher there and and it

843
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:48,559
turned the whole thing around and i

844
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:49,760
remember as we were heading back to the

845
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:51,360
airport in albuquerque saying to don

846
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:53,200
schmidt you know we've got to come back

847
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:55,679
we we haven't touched this deeply enough

848
00:31:59,509 --> 00:31:57,360
and then from that point on we found the

849
00:32:01,029 --> 00:31:59,519
family of the sheriff wilcox we found

850
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,039
more of the people who had been assigned

851
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,360
to the base in 1947 we talked to more of

852
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:05,120
the local people that were involved in

853
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:07,919
1947 so it became a much better story

854
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:09,760
but we have been in unable to find

855
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:11,919
anything that would link it to

856
00:32:20,070 --> 00:32:17,200
a psyop experiment uh some kind of of

857
00:32:22,549 --> 00:32:20,080
hidden experimentation on the other the

858
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:22,559
effects of psychotropic drugs we

859
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:23,840
couldn't find anything that would

860
00:32:27,909 --> 00:32:25,919
suggest it was some kind of psyop

861
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:27,919
operation to fool the soviets for

862
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,640
whatever reason um we couldn't find any

863
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:32,640
evidence that it was the soviets and for

864
00:32:36,470 --> 00:32:34,080
a while there were people talking about

865
00:32:39,509 --> 00:32:36,480
well the soviets had developed the

866
00:32:42,630 --> 00:32:39,519
what the tu4 which was their copy down

867
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:42,640
to the last detail of of a b-29 and it

868
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:45,120
could have been them flying their b-29

869
00:32:49,830 --> 00:32:46,880
to new mexico just to prove that they

870
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:49,840
could it's now kind of like samsung

871
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:52,399
copies the iphone i i'm not going to go

872
00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:53,600
there because i don't want to get

873
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:56,080
involved with samsung or microsoft in a

874
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:57,760
lawsuit so

875
00:33:01,269 --> 00:32:59,200
they're not going to sue you i assure

876
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:01,279
you i've been doing this for years and

877
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:04,559
if they would sue me i might make money

878
00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:07,200
out of it so don't worry

879
00:33:09,750 --> 00:33:08,240
well

880
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:09,760
they're a lot bigger than i am and i

881
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:12,159
have no complaints about my samsung

882
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:14,960
phone or my samsung smart tv so i'm

883
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:16,720
happy with them we gotta watch out

884
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:18,799
though certain samsung's the battery

885
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:21,919
blows up my phone is too old to blow up

886
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:24,159
okay well that's that's certainly

887
00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:26,640
encouraging if it hasn't by now it won't

888
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:28,399
and watch out for samsung washing

889
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:29,760
machines

890
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:31,760
because they come apart

891
00:33:36,710 --> 00:33:33,519
i don't have a samsung washing machine

892
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:36,720
my samsung tv is wonderful i enjoy it

893
00:33:42,630 --> 00:33:39,519
immensely but we've somehow got

894
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:42,640
on track here from a b29 to a samsung

895
00:33:47,110 --> 00:33:44,159
and an iphone i'm just thinking if we

896
00:33:49,190 --> 00:33:47,120
brought an iphone back to 1947 and tried

897
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:49,200
to reverse engineer it or even a samsung

898
00:33:53,269 --> 00:33:51,679
but seriously okay so you look into the

899
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:53,279
possibility that the soviets did

900
00:33:57,830 --> 00:33:56,399
something to mimic our technology

901
00:34:00,149 --> 00:33:57,840
and they were flying them around but

902
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:00,159
that wasn't it either well if you if you

903
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,919
look at the history you find out that

904
00:34:06,870 --> 00:34:03,600
during the second world war a number of

905
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,880
our b-29s had landed in the soviet union

906
00:34:09,829 --> 00:34:08,320
because you know as they were attacking

907
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:09,839
japan they

908
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:11,599
had troubles and they had to

909
00:34:17,109 --> 00:34:13,440
go to the closest base to land so the

910
00:34:18,869 --> 00:34:17,119
soviets had like four b-29s and they

911
00:34:20,790 --> 00:34:18,879
reverse engineered them and created

912
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,800
basically a b-29

913
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:22,560
so the theory was that they had flown

914
00:34:25,510 --> 00:34:23,839
one to

915
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:25,520
new mexico to prove that they had the

916
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:26,879
range to

917
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:28,960
attack the continental united states but

918
00:34:32,389 --> 00:34:30,720
it's a one-way mission and there's no

919
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:32,399
evidence that that took place and all

920
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:34,159
they're actually all their b29s their

921
00:34:39,510 --> 00:34:38,079
tu4s were accounted for in 1947 so um

922
00:34:41,990 --> 00:34:39,520
there's nothing missing there but what

923
00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:42,000
i'm saying is we we did all of this sort

924
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,639
of due diligence in trying to find an

925
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:46,639
alternative explanation

926
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:49,599
i've got uh scads of of um

927
00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:52,720
manuals on balloons from the navy and

928
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,560
and whatnot looking for some kind of a

929
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:56,079
balloon experiment that might have

930
00:35:00,950 --> 00:34:58,480
covered the situation and we just could

931
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:00,960
find absolutely nothing that that would

932
00:35:05,270 --> 00:35:03,359
suggest a terrestrial explanation which

933
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:05,280
of course doesn't take you to

934
00:35:09,430 --> 00:35:07,280
the extraterrestrial it merely says we

935
00:35:11,430 --> 00:35:09,440
haven't found anything that explains it

936
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:11,440
in terrestrial terms

937
00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:13,200
let's take a look further

938
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:15,680
at all this eyewitness testimony that

939
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:18,480
came up that talked about possible

940
00:35:23,270 --> 00:35:21,040
bodies of aliens and everything now

941
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:23,280
before we get to that let's get to the

942
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:25,680
fact that we're talking to witnesses

943
00:35:31,109 --> 00:35:29,040
here to an event that happened 30 years

944
00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:31,119
previously so even though there was some

945
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:32,640
scattered mention

946
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,160
of this case

947
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:37,200
up until the late 1970s it was scattered

948
00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:39,119
nobody followed up on it it was three

949
00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:41,119
paragraphs in a frank edwards book who

950
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:42,960
takes that seriously

951
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:45,760
so okay we have all these witnesses that

952
00:35:51,190 --> 00:35:48,240
you were locating over the years

953
00:35:52,950 --> 00:35:51,200
how did you allow for 30 years to color

954
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,960
their testimony

955
00:35:56,870 --> 00:35:54,800
back when we started

956
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:56,880
i think that the

957
00:36:01,349 --> 00:35:59,599
evidence for memory wasn't quite as

958
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:01,359
definitive as it is today and people

959
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:03,839
were uh saying things about memory

960
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:05,359
especially flash bulb memories which

961
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:07,200
this would be a memory of an important

962
00:36:10,230 --> 00:36:08,400
event in their lives and they would

963
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,240
recall it properly

964
00:36:14,630 --> 00:36:12,960
and and coherently and of course we've

965
00:36:17,109 --> 00:36:14,640
now learned that that's not necessarily

966
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:17,119
true either so back when we began we

967
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:18,640
thought they were probably relating

968
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:21,280
things to us properly and accurately

969
00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:23,520
so then we'll go break in a second so

970
00:36:27,190 --> 00:36:24,720
then

971
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:27,200
it's just our viewpoint at the time we

972
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:28,560
didn't realize

973
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:31,280
how unreliable memory can be

974
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:33,119
and therefore you just took the stuff at

975
00:36:36,630 --> 00:36:35,040
face value i assume therefore there must

976
00:36:37,910 --> 00:36:36,640
have been a lot of contradictions i'm

977
00:36:40,550 --> 00:36:37,920
going to have to go into that in our

978
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:40,560
next segment we have kevin randall we

979
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:42,800
have goggs makai we have erica loops

980
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:44,800
who's our guest co-host chris is on the

981
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:48,050
mend you're in the parry cast

982
00:37:05,310 --> 00:37:04,069
thank you for listening to gcn

983
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be sure to visit

984
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gcnlive.com today

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1038
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[Music]

1086
00:41:18,309 --> 00:41:16,319
this is jerome clark author of the ufo

1087
00:41:20,770 --> 00:41:18,319
encyclopedia and other books you're

1088
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:20,780
listening to the purecast

1089
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:32,790
so we continue

1090
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:35,920
with erica luke's guest co-host our

1091
00:41:39,829 --> 00:41:38,000
favorite moderator until we have another

1092
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:39,839
moderator on the show and he becomes or

1093
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:41,920
she becomes our favorite goggs makai

1094
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:44,720
from scotland and kevin randle author of

1095
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:47,680
roswell in the 21st century and we're

1096
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:50,880
talking about our understanding of the

1097
00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:53,599
reliability of human memory in the 70s

1098
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:55,520
and 80s and such and maybe we were a

1099
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:58,240
little naive about it then so clearly

1100
00:42:01,349 --> 00:42:00,000
though when you talk to a bunch of

1101
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:01,359
different people about something that

1102
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:03,440
happened 30 years previously you're

1103
00:42:08,069 --> 00:42:06,079
going to get contradictions

1104
00:42:09,349 --> 00:42:08,079
absolutely so how did you how did you

1105
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:09,359
weigh those

1106
00:42:12,710 --> 00:42:11,040
we looked at

1107
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,720
what documentation was available through

1108
00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:14,480
the newspapers so that we could compare

1109
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:17,040
what was being said in 1947 with what

1110
00:42:21,430 --> 00:42:20,160
was being said in 1990 1991

1111
00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:21,440
i think the one thing that the the

1112
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:22,800
skeptics pointed out well the people

1113
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:24,000
said there were four bodies somebody

1114
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:25,280
said there's five bodies somebody said

1115
00:42:28,470 --> 00:42:27,440
there were two bodies and and i said you

1116
00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,480
know they're looking at it from a

1117
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:30,000
different perspective a different point

1118
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:31,119
of view

1119
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:32,240
if i

1120
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:34,079
only saw two bodies

1121
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:36,160
i'm relating that i saw two bodies

1122
00:42:39,589 --> 00:42:37,760
doesn't mean there wasn't another two

1123
00:42:42,790 --> 00:42:39,599
somewhere else it means that was the

1124
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,800
only observation that i made in 1947 so

1125
00:42:46,710 --> 00:42:44,400
we realized

1126
00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:46,720
that in talking to people whose jobs

1127
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,319
would have been different whose

1128
00:42:51,829 --> 00:42:49,839
participation in the event would have

1129
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:51,839
been from a different perspective

1130
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:53,839
that we're going to have those sorts of

1131
00:42:57,190 --> 00:42:55,680
contradictions that wasn't the thing

1132
00:42:59,030 --> 00:42:57,200
that really was turned out to be the

1133
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:59,040
stumbling block it turned out to be all

1134
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:00,720
the lying going on

1135
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:02,960
and i had thought until i read a book

1136
00:43:07,990 --> 00:43:05,520
called stone valor in the mid-1990s

1137
00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:08,000
i did not believe that people would

1138
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:09,760
insert themselves

1139
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:12,000
into a story just for their 15 minutes

1140
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:13,280
of fame but that's

1141
00:43:18,150 --> 00:43:15,359
we found an awful lot of that

1142
00:43:20,069 --> 00:43:18,160
the best the best way to explain that is

1143
00:43:21,910 --> 00:43:20,079
at one point there were in the early

1144
00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:21,920
1990 i think there were 2.5 million

1145
00:43:26,230 --> 00:43:24,240
vietnam veterans i mean guys

1146
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:26,240
and women there were a few women but but

1147
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:27,920
women who served in vietnam there were

1148
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:31,040
2.5 million of them in the 1990s census

1149
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:32,560
there was a question on the census are

1150
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:34,480
you a vietnam veteran

1151
00:43:39,910 --> 00:43:37,680
13 million people said yes

1152
00:43:42,150 --> 00:43:39,920
10 and a half million are lying about it

1153
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:42,160
why would you lie on the census form

1154
00:43:45,349 --> 00:43:44,079
nobody's going to see it nobody's going

1155
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:45,359
to have any

1156
00:43:49,990 --> 00:43:47,760
reason to check it but 10 and a half

1157
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:50,000
million people lied about it

1158
00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:52,079
and this book stolen valner just kind of

1159
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:54,000
brought all that to the forefront for me

1160
00:43:56,710 --> 00:43:55,680
of all these guys claiming these

1161
00:43:58,790 --> 00:43:56,720
horrific

1162
00:44:00,069 --> 00:43:58,800
combat experiences in vietnam and you go

1163
00:44:01,589 --> 00:44:00,079
back and you look at their records and

1164
00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:01,599
you find out that they've been clerks in

1165
00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:02,960
vietnam

1166
00:44:10,309 --> 00:44:07,839
been in okinawa or japan or germany for

1167
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:10,319
their two years when they were drafted

1168
00:44:13,829 --> 00:44:11,680
quite a few of them hadn't even been in

1169
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:13,839
the military and yet they've got these

1170
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:16,160
horrific stories of their combat

1171
00:44:20,550 --> 00:44:18,400
experiences in vietnam you know we're

1172
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:20,560
now in the the age of fake news there

1173
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:23,200
was a documentary on cbs called the wall

1174
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:24,720
within or something like that it was

1175
00:44:28,950 --> 00:44:26,160
talking about these vietnam veterans

1176
00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:28,960
with their horrific stories they didn't

1177
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,560
bother to check their records to see if

1178
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:32,079
they'd been in vietnam or been in the

1179
00:44:35,589 --> 00:44:33,520
military they just accepted everything

1180
00:44:37,109 --> 00:44:35,599
at face value and you go back and you

1181
00:44:38,710 --> 00:44:37,119
look at some of these guys the ones you

1182
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:38,720
could check you find out they were lying

1183
00:44:42,870 --> 00:44:40,960
about it so yeah i came to the

1184
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:42,880
realization that we've got problems with

1185
00:44:47,109 --> 00:44:45,280
that as well not only do we have the

1186
00:44:49,109 --> 00:44:47,119
problem with memory

1187
00:44:50,870 --> 00:44:49,119
going astray on us

1188
00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:50,880
i think elizabeth loftus did a lot of

1189
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:52,640
work on this that that you know we were

1190
00:44:56,710 --> 00:44:55,040
reading her stuff as it came out on the

1191
00:44:59,430 --> 00:44:56,720
problems with memory and how it is

1192
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:59,440
manipulated and how it changes even when

1193
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:01,520
you don't mean to i mean

1194
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:03,200
i think lydia schleppie again is a

1195
00:45:07,990 --> 00:45:05,119
wonderful example of this she original

1196
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:08,000
story that appeared in 1976 about

1197
00:45:11,349 --> 00:45:09,920
being told to stop the transmission she

1198
00:45:12,950 --> 00:45:11,359
said it was interrupted you know stop

1199
00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:12,960
the transmission

1200
00:45:18,390 --> 00:45:15,440
by the time i talked to her it was this

1201
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:18,400
is the fbi stop this transmission so she

1202
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:19,920
had been she had listened to some other

1203
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:21,920
people talking about the involvement of

1204
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,400
the fbi possibly the investigation and

1205
00:45:27,990 --> 00:45:26,400
incorporated that into her memory she's

1206
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:28,000
telling us the truth as best she

1207
00:45:31,190 --> 00:45:29,760
remembers it it's just some of the

1208
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,200
details have just

1209
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:33,200
are not quite accurate and sorry to

1210
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:34,720
interrupt you we're talking about this

1211
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:36,800
and i want to ask you this because

1212
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:38,880
people have insert themselves like you

1213
00:45:44,829 --> 00:45:42,000
say into these scenarios tell us about

1214
00:45:47,349 --> 00:45:44,839
june crane and your thoughts about june

1215
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:47,359
crane oh good oh june she was a very

1216
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:48,800
nice lady

1217
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:50,960
and she had sent me a letter

1218
00:45:55,430 --> 00:45:52,480
talking about

1219
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:55,440
her involvement in in this she was a

1220
00:45:59,109 --> 00:45:57,839
clerk typist a typist at wright

1221
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:59,119
patterson air right right field

1222
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:00,640
wright-patterson air force base and she

1223
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:03,520
was talking about how at some point an

1224
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:05,760
nco that they knew came in and told them

1225
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:07,760
about this aircraft that came in with

1226
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:10,480
with alien bodies on it and then within

1227
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:12,240
minutes or within hours a colonel would

1228
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,680
come in and said don't talk about this

1229
00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:15,599
to anybody uh he has a twenty thousand

1230
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:17,119
dollar fine and twenty years in jail if

1231
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:18,720
you talk about these things it's

1232
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:20,720
classified don't talk about it

1233
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:22,079
so we

1234
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:24,160
were looking at her story and she sent

1235
00:46:28,230 --> 00:46:26,240
me an awful lot i've got pictures she

1236
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:28,240
sent me i've got some of the original

1237
00:46:31,750 --> 00:46:30,160
documents of her employment proving that

1238
00:46:35,190 --> 00:46:31,760
she was in

1239
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:35,200
employed at right field at certain times

1240
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:37,200
but then you go you begin looking at the

1241
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,640
dates

1242
00:46:42,390 --> 00:46:40,480
and they just don't track

1243
00:46:45,430 --> 00:46:42,400
you know she wasn't employed at right

1244
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:45,440
field in july of 1947. she'd been

1245
00:46:49,750 --> 00:46:47,200
employed there and she would be employed

1246
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:49,760
there again but in july of 1947 she

1247
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:52,079
wasn't uh so i got to think well maybe

1248
00:46:56,230 --> 00:46:53,839
it was the kingman arizona crash before

1249
00:46:57,910 --> 00:46:56,240
i realized that was a hoax but the dates

1250
00:47:00,790 --> 00:46:57,920
again didn't track

1251
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:00,800
she had ufo sightings she provided names

1252
00:47:04,390 --> 00:47:02,400
of people unfortunately we couldn't find

1253
00:47:06,150 --> 00:47:04,400
any of them alive to corroborate what

1254
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:06,160
she was saying but but she was a very

1255
00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:07,680
nice lady i think she was somewhat

1256
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:08,800
lonely

1257
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:10,560
and i'm sure that she was trying to

1258
00:47:15,190 --> 00:47:12,880
relate to us the truth as best she could

1259
00:47:17,190 --> 00:47:15,200
remember it but i don't think her story

1260
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:17,200
was was accurate and so you know that

1261
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,839
was kind of where we left it i got a

1262
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,200
email from

1263
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:23,680
jim clarkson yes in fact he's a friend

1264
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:25,920
of mine and i interviewed him on my

1265
00:47:30,950 --> 00:47:27,760
radio show and played some clips that

1266
00:47:33,349 --> 00:47:30,960
june with her speaking about this

1267
00:47:35,829 --> 00:47:33,359
and i had sent him i'd sent him copies

1268
00:47:38,069 --> 00:47:35,839
of everything i had so that he could do

1269
00:47:41,030 --> 00:47:38,079
that and he spent a lot of time with her

1270
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:41,040
and i read his his stuff on online and

1271
00:47:43,829 --> 00:47:42,000
everything

1272
00:47:45,670 --> 00:47:43,839
but we just couldn't corroborate the

1273
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:45,680
timing of the event

1274
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:47,440
when she would have had to have been at

1275
00:47:51,030 --> 00:47:49,599
right field in her position and she

1276
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,040
apparently had a

1277
00:47:55,270 --> 00:47:53,359
a fairly responsible position even for

1278
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:55,280
clerk typists i mean some clerk typists

1279
00:47:58,950 --> 00:47:56,960
have to be cleared for classified

1280
00:48:00,790 --> 00:47:58,960
materials because somebody has to type

1281
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,800
that stuff and you can't imagine a

1282
00:48:04,309 --> 00:48:02,240
colonel sitting down to type his own

1283
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:04,319
stuff for crying out loud so clearly she

1284
00:48:07,430 --> 00:48:05,760
you know she was there she had the

1285
00:48:09,030 --> 00:48:07,440
classification

1286
00:48:11,589 --> 00:48:09,040
the clearances that she claimed to have

1287
00:48:14,390 --> 00:48:11,599
she clearly worked there periods she got

1288
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:14,400
a nice review she got promoted but the

1289
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:16,400
timing simply didn't work out there was

1290
00:48:20,550 --> 00:48:18,160
nothing in the documentation that

1291
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:20,560
supported her stories now question

1292
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:22,640
occurs to me as we talk about people

1293
00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:24,800
inserting themselves

1294
00:48:29,109 --> 00:48:26,960
into historical events like

1295
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:29,119
having service in vietnam when it didn't

1296
00:48:33,349 --> 00:48:31,520
exist or the gulf war or something so

1297
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:33,359
this is happening with roswell as it

1298
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:35,359
became more famous

1299
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:37,920
that basically influenced more and more

1300
00:48:43,910 --> 00:48:41,119
people to insert themselves in the story

1301
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:43,920
absolutely and and if it wasn't just the

1302
00:48:47,910 --> 00:48:45,680
person himself it was the children of

1303
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,920
that person inserting themselves into

1304
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:49,680
the story well my father told me this

1305
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:50,800
tale

1306
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:52,400
the father may have fact told them a

1307
00:48:56,069 --> 00:48:54,400
tale and the father may have inserted

1308
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:56,079
himself into the story now the children

1309
00:49:00,309 --> 00:48:58,240
are relying on what the what the father

1310
00:49:01,270 --> 00:49:00,319
said about being involved in this sort

1311
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:01,280
of thing

1312
00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:04,559
but you've got all of this sort of

1313
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:06,480
stuff going on

1314
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,720
and when you check it out it it just

1315
00:49:13,109 --> 00:49:10,960
simply doesn't work there's a guy named

1316
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:13,119
lee reeves i think his father had been

1317
00:49:16,549 --> 00:49:15,200
in roswell in 1947 had been a police

1318
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:16,559
officer at some point been in the fire

1319
00:49:22,309 --> 00:49:18,240
department at some point

1320
00:49:24,790 --> 00:49:22,319
in 1947 he was a laborer with a oil

1321
00:49:25,589 --> 00:49:24,800
refinery in the area if i remember the

1322
00:49:27,270 --> 00:49:25,599
the

1323
00:49:29,270 --> 00:49:27,280
city directory correct we can look all

1324
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:29,280
this stuff up in the city directory

1325
00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:30,960
he was saying that his father told him

1326
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:32,880
that he and dan dwyer dan dwyer being

1327
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:34,960
the father of frankie rowe

1328
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:37,520
who said that he'd seen the bodies

1329
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:39,839
frankie wrote dan ryer being a fire

1330
00:49:43,430 --> 00:49:41,599
firefighter and we got pictures of him

1331
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:43,440
in his firefighter uniform and when i

1332
00:49:47,030 --> 00:49:44,720
went through the

1333
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:47,040
fire department log books and records

1334
00:49:52,150 --> 00:49:50,400
for 1947 i found his name repeatedly as

1335
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,160
being in charge of of some of the

1336
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:54,000
firefighting activities

1337
00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:54,720
so

1338
00:49:58,790 --> 00:49:56,880
lee reeves said that he had

1339
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:58,800
gone out to the

1340
00:50:02,710 --> 00:50:01,440
crash site with dan dwyer in their

1341
00:50:04,790 --> 00:50:02,720
makeshift

1342
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:04,800
pickup truck with a big water tank on

1343
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:05,920
the back or something i'm not sure

1344
00:50:09,670 --> 00:50:07,680
exactly what it was but it would have

1345
00:50:11,349 --> 00:50:09,680
been an official

1346
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:11,359
fire vehicle it would have been in the

1347
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:12,880
logs that they had gone out on this run

1348
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:14,559
outside the city limits and it's not

1349
00:50:17,670 --> 00:50:15,520
there

1350
00:50:19,190 --> 00:50:17,680
and dwyer said nothing about this we

1351
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:19,200
talked to another guy

1352
00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:21,040
named i believe his last name is smith

1353
00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:22,480
who had been a firefighter at the time

1354
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:24,079
and

1355
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:25,920
karl flock in his book book about

1356
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:27,680
roswell talks about

1357
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:29,280
him saying that they they didn't make

1358
00:50:33,589 --> 00:50:31,520
the run to the outside the city limits

1359
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:33,599
and left at that i asked smith an

1360
00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:35,040
additional question i said you know dan

1361
00:50:37,270 --> 00:50:36,480
dwyer and he said oh yeah he went out

1362
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:37,280
there

1363
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,800
and i don't know why carl didn't ask

1364
00:50:43,109 --> 00:50:41,040
that question but he didn't so so we

1365
00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:43,119
have smith saying yes dan dwyer went out

1366
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:44,480
there but he went out in his personal

1367
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:47,040
car is what smith said said

1368
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:49,760
so we we we got that kind of

1369
00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:51,520
figured out so i mean there's one point

1370
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:52,960
where we've got some contradictions and

1371
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:54,240
we were able to figure it out there was

1372
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:56,000
no record of the fire department going

1373
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,839
out there yet dan dwyer said that he'd

1374
00:51:01,030 --> 00:50:58,960
gone out there you know how do you

1375
00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:01,040
reconcile these two problems and the

1376
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:02,240
answer is he didn't go out there

1377
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:03,440
officially he went out there in their

1378
00:51:07,829 --> 00:51:05,440
private car and some kernel from the

1379
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:07,839
base and again it's always a kernel it's

1380
00:51:10,390 --> 00:51:09,280
never a major never a captain it's

1381
00:51:11,589 --> 00:51:10,400
always a colonel came to the fire

1382
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,599
department says don't worry about this

1383
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:13,440
we got it covered we'll handle you guys

1384
00:51:17,109 --> 00:51:15,440
don't have to do anything smith told me

1385
00:51:19,829 --> 00:51:17,119
all that from his perspective of being a

1386
00:51:22,710 --> 00:51:19,839
firefighter at the department of 1947.

1387
00:51:24,950 --> 00:51:22,720
so the point is reeves uh talked about

1388
00:51:27,270 --> 00:51:24,960
how his father had gone out with dan

1389
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:27,280
dwyer everything says that story is

1390
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:28,240
untrue

1391
00:51:33,190 --> 00:51:30,720
let's progress more of this unraveling

1392
00:51:35,829 --> 00:51:33,200
roswell and to see where it leads and

1393
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:35,839
doesn't lead with kevin randall gog's

1394
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:38,480
makai erica luke's is our guest co-host

1395
00:51:45,250 --> 00:51:40,880
as chris is on the mend you're in the

1396
00:51:45,260 --> 00:51:50,470
[Music]

1397
00:51:58,150 --> 00:51:53,990
thank you for listening to gcn

1398
00:52:00,150 --> 00:51:58,160
be sure to visit gcnlive.com today

1399
00:52:02,470 --> 00:52:00,160
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[Applause]

1451
00:54:13,829 --> 00:54:10,150
welcome back to the paracast the gold

1452
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:13,839
standard of paranormal radio

1453
00:54:18,430 --> 00:54:15,119
and now

1454
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:18,440
here's jane steinberg

1455
00:54:27,109 --> 00:54:24,710
so here it unravels or

1456
00:54:28,790 --> 00:54:27,119
whatever anyway let's kind of look at

1457
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:28,800
the end of the process and maybe start

1458
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:30,319
disassembling this because there's so

1459
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:32,240
many stories we can tell about roswell

1460
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:34,800
we can do 100 shows in succession and

1461
00:54:39,510 --> 00:54:37,440
never cover all of it so this is going

1462
00:54:41,910 --> 00:54:39,520
on and then

1463
00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:41,920
there's a point where you put together a

1464
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:45,040
few people to set up a roswell dream

1465
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,760
team to look at this as a cold case

1466
00:54:51,990 --> 00:54:50,240
reevaluate the evidence

1467
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:52,000
at the end of the day the only person

1468
00:54:55,829 --> 00:54:52,880
left

1469
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:55,839
standing is kevin randall how did this

1470
00:54:59,510 --> 00:54:57,440
idea begin

1471
00:55:01,109 --> 00:54:59,520
i had thought about doing a a book about

1472
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:01,119
roswell and looking at it as a cold case

1473
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:02,640
and i actually approached the publisher

1474
00:55:05,910 --> 00:55:03,760
to do it

1475
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:05,920
and the publisher hadn't gotten back to

1476
00:55:10,150 --> 00:55:07,760
me at this point

1477
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:10,160
and we were in roswell and i say we we

1478
00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:11,680
were there for the festival don schmidt

1479
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:13,760
tom carrey and me and lots and lots of

1480
00:55:17,430 --> 00:55:16,000
other people and carrie said to me one

1481
00:55:18,950 --> 00:55:17,440
one day let's go to church's fried

1482
00:55:21,910 --> 00:55:18,960
chicken for lunch and i'm thinking yeah

1483
00:55:23,910 --> 00:55:21,920
okay not going to get me to not go to a

1484
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:23,920
church's fried chicken i will go there

1485
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:25,839
repeatedly if you want to sit down and

1486
00:55:29,910 --> 00:55:27,920
do an investigation of the roswell case

1487
00:55:31,589 --> 00:55:29,920
with me i said sure

1488
00:55:33,030 --> 00:55:31,599
remembering that i've already

1489
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:33,040
had had

1490
00:55:35,510 --> 00:55:34,319
contacted the publisher about this and

1491
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,520
was worried about what would happen if

1492
00:55:38,950 --> 00:55:37,119
the publisher said yes turned out the

1493
00:55:40,309 --> 00:55:38,960
publisher said no we wanted we want a

1494
00:55:43,109 --> 00:55:40,319
book with more

1495
00:55:45,430 --> 00:55:43,119
cases in it which became the

1496
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,440
government ufo file so the book that i

1497
00:55:49,109 --> 00:55:47,280
had proposed evolved into the government

1498
00:55:51,270 --> 00:55:49,119
ufo files which was not a roswell book

1499
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:51,280
so tom kerry proposed to me that we work

1500
00:55:55,109 --> 00:55:53,839
together and i'm thinking great tom i'm

1501
00:55:57,510 --> 00:55:55,119
willing to work with you that's a good

1502
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:57,520
idea uh before i know it he had asked

1503
00:56:01,670 --> 00:56:00,079
don schmidt to join in which he should

1504
00:56:03,190 --> 00:56:01,680
have said something to me before he done

1505
00:56:05,190 --> 00:56:03,200
that and so that i figured well if we

1506
00:56:06,390 --> 00:56:05,200
got don schmidt maybe we got to look at

1507
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:06,400
a couple of other people whose

1508
00:56:09,670 --> 00:56:08,000
information would be valuable david

1509
00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:09,680
rudiak for example

1510
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:10,559
who

1511
00:56:15,829 --> 00:56:13,280
just immerses himself in these things

1512
00:56:17,589 --> 00:56:15,839
and has all the minutia at his

1513
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:17,599
fingertips so if i get stuck on a

1514
00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:20,400
question i would ask david rudiak for

1515
00:56:23,829 --> 00:56:21,680
the answer and he would send me

1516
00:56:26,069 --> 00:56:23,839
something in response i mean he had it

1517
00:56:27,510 --> 00:56:26,079
all i don't know how he categorizes it

1518
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:27,520
catalogs it

1519
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:29,040
sets it up i don't know how he does it

1520
00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:30,319
but he seems to have the stuff at his

1521
00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:33,119
fingertips and there's been a couple of

1522
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,880
really obscure questions there had been

1523
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:36,640
a story that came out the newspaper

1524
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:37,440
about

1525
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:40,240
something on the ranch the week before

1526
00:56:43,270 --> 00:56:41,839
and i asked rudiak about he said well

1527
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:43,280
the only thing i can find is this case

1528
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:44,799
that took place in las cruces i think

1529
00:56:49,349 --> 00:56:46,400
that's probably it

1530
00:56:51,589 --> 00:56:49,359
so we we brought in david rudiak and uh

1531
00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:51,599
we brought in tony begalia because he

1532
00:56:55,829 --> 00:56:53,920
was very good at locating people uh

1533
00:56:58,870 --> 00:56:55,839
through his through his work and what he

1534
00:57:01,190 --> 00:56:58,880
what he does in his contacts he could

1535
00:57:02,870 --> 00:57:01,200
locate people we need somebody from the

1536
00:57:04,710 --> 00:57:02,880
skeptical side and we we settled on

1537
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:04,720
chris rukowski who's

1538
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:06,160
well known in the field as well and we

1539
00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:07,440
were going to kind of look at all of

1540
00:57:09,349 --> 00:57:08,160
this

1541
00:57:14,549 --> 00:57:09,359
as a

1542
00:57:16,870 --> 00:57:14,559
2012 so we've been working on this and

1543
00:57:18,069 --> 00:57:16,880
we hold a meeting in again in roswell we

1544
00:57:19,990 --> 00:57:18,079
all happen to be in roswell we're in

1545
00:57:21,829 --> 00:57:20,000
roswell and we're sitting in the

1546
00:57:23,510 --> 00:57:21,839
breakfast area of the hotel

1547
00:57:25,349 --> 00:57:23,520
like at midnight

1548
00:57:28,549 --> 00:57:25,359
talking about this and i said to tom and

1549
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:28,559
don we have to come up with some witness

1550
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:30,559
here we have to come up with something

1551
00:57:36,069 --> 00:57:33,760
here that moves us beyond the pale moves

1552
00:57:38,549 --> 00:57:36,079
us beyond where we've been before some

1553
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:38,559
kind of new information and they nod and

1554
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:40,160
say yeah we got to do that we got to do

1555
00:57:44,789 --> 00:57:42,319
that at the time they had already

1556
00:57:46,789 --> 00:57:44,799
learned about the roswell slides

1557
00:57:48,950 --> 00:57:46,799
they were involved in the investigation

1558
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:48,960
they said nothing to me about this i

1559
00:57:52,390 --> 00:57:51,040
learned about the roswell slides from

1560
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:52,400
rich reynolds

1561
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:54,880
on his ufo conjectures blog that was the

1562
00:57:59,589 --> 00:57:57,119
first i'd ever heard of it and i sent an

1563
00:58:01,750 --> 00:57:59,599
email to tom and and uh he wrote back

1564
00:58:03,670 --> 00:58:01,760
and said yeah that's you know very

1565
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:03,680
bizarre and that sort of thing so i

1566
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:05,520
really didn't know what was going on at

1567
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,799
that point here we're supposed to be

1568
00:58:10,950 --> 00:58:08,400
working together and i'm out of this

1569
00:58:12,710 --> 00:58:10,960
loop all they had to say in the the

1570
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,720
meeting that we held was we've got

1571
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:14,480
something working on we can't talk about

1572
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:16,640
it right now but we've got something

1573
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:19,040
going here didn't say a word to me and

1574
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:21,520
as so as this evolved

1575
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:24,000
i realized that there was

1576
00:58:27,349 --> 00:58:25,599
we really weren't working together on

1577
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:27,359
anything we were kind of working at odds

1578
00:58:31,750 --> 00:58:29,680
with one another so i i said well i'm

1579
00:58:32,710 --> 00:58:31,760
i'm done with i'm done with this i'm i'm

1580
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:32,720
out

1581
00:58:35,349 --> 00:58:34,559
uh it sounds like you were all working

1582
00:58:37,030 --> 00:58:35,359
for

1583
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:37,040
your own interests at least the other

1584
00:58:40,950 --> 00:58:39,040
people or at least certain people

1585
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:40,960
because i'm sure chris rutkowski doesn't

1586
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:42,960
do things like that nor does kevin

1587
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:45,599
randle and mr rudiak certainly doesn't

1588
00:58:49,990 --> 00:58:47,359
so i tend to think we have two left but

1589
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:50,000
i will not cast aspersions well

1590
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:52,000
i was going to say and we can't forget

1591
00:58:55,589 --> 00:58:53,920
tony begalia because he was he was

1592
00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:55,599
telling me some things about this so he

1593
00:58:59,190 --> 00:58:57,359
was he couldn't understand why i was

1594
00:59:01,829 --> 00:58:59,200
outside the loop the other thing that

1595
00:59:04,470 --> 00:59:01,839
turns out bizarre i have an email from

1596
00:59:07,190 --> 00:59:04,480
yeah adam do who was the guy that

1597
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:07,200
first approached tom with the slides the

1598
00:59:10,950 --> 00:59:08,880
not roswell slides

1599
00:59:13,510 --> 00:59:10,960
and do said should we bring kevin randle

1600
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:13,520
into this and don and tom said no

1601
00:59:18,390 --> 00:59:16,559
so here we're allegedly working together

1602
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:18,400
on this project

1603
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:20,160
and they've cut me out of this one

1604
00:59:24,069 --> 00:59:22,240
segment of it i don't know what the

1605
00:59:26,630 --> 00:59:24,079
motivation was other than i might have

1606
00:59:28,950 --> 00:59:26,640
been way too skeptical and i said to tom

1607
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:28,960
in december of 2015 before they had the

1608
00:59:32,870 --> 00:59:31,359
great reveal in mexico city i was trying

1609
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:32,880
to figure out what would the image be on

1610
00:59:35,430 --> 00:59:34,000
the slides and i was looking through

1611
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:35,440
science fiction books i was looking

1612
00:59:39,430 --> 00:59:37,760
through a lot of information on movies

1613
00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:39,440
from the 1940s where they might have

1614
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:41,520
created some kind of a prop of an alien

1615
00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:43,920
creature that might have found its way

1616
00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:46,160
into the mainstream in that way and i

1617
00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:47,520
couldn't find anything like that the

1618
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:49,359
only thing i could think of since

1619
00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:52,400
this was roswell it's a desert southwest

1620
00:59:56,950 --> 00:59:55,440
that a lot of times mummies

1621
00:59:58,470 --> 00:59:56,960
the people when they when they died and

1622
00:59:59,990 --> 00:59:58,480
they were buried they would mummify

1623
01:00:02,150 --> 01:00:00,000
through natural processes that it was

1624
01:00:04,150 --> 01:00:02,160
some kind of a mummy and i sent an email

1625
01:00:06,230 --> 01:00:04,160
to tom could this be a mummy he said no

1626
01:00:08,309 --> 01:00:06,240
can't be a mummy and as we all know

1627
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,319
within 48 hours we learned that it was

1628
01:00:11,910 --> 01:00:10,319
in fact a mummy and you think that also

1629
01:00:14,470 --> 01:00:11,920
we have an obsession with mummies have

1630
01:00:16,069 --> 01:00:14,480
been some really big films about mummies

1631
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:16,079
over the years i mean starting from the

1632
01:00:19,109 --> 01:00:18,160
early 30s with juarez karloff as the

1633
01:00:21,190 --> 01:00:19,119
mummy

1634
01:00:24,069 --> 01:00:21,200
and we have a brand new movie about the

1635
01:00:26,549 --> 01:00:24,079
mummy where the mummy is a woman and tom

1636
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:26,559
cruise is chasing after her so mummies

1637
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:28,799
have been part of her pop culture but

1638
01:00:32,630 --> 01:00:30,400
there was nothing you know if you look

1639
01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:32,640
at the mummies in the movies especially

1640
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:34,880
in the 30s they certainly weren't as

1641
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:37,599
grotesque as the ones that

1642
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:39,760
they can do today with their abilities

1643
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:41,520
but but there was just nothing that

1644
01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:42,400
looked

1645
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:44,720
like it could be an alien creature uh

1646
01:00:48,390 --> 01:00:45,920
the only thing i could think of was a

1647
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:48,400
mummy and they said no it's it's not a

1648
01:00:52,230 --> 01:00:50,079
mummy and of course we

1649
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:52,240
we now know the truth about that

1650
01:00:54,390 --> 01:00:53,040
but

1651
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:54,400
i mean they didn't really perform their

1652
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:56,160
due diligence though tom says oh we did

1653
01:00:59,349 --> 01:00:57,599
our due diligence well no you really

1654
01:01:01,990 --> 01:00:59,359
didn't because it turned out to be a

1655
01:01:03,910 --> 01:01:02,000
mummy the first time i saw the slides

1656
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:03,920
and i'm not the only one a lot of people

1657
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:05,520
i think thought this first i saw the

1658
01:01:10,230 --> 01:01:07,040
slides i said it looks like a mummy in a

1659
01:01:12,549 --> 01:01:10,240
museum a display case and of course what

1660
01:01:13,829 --> 01:01:12,559
was it a mummy in a museum in a display

1661
01:01:16,470 --> 01:01:13,839
case and i'm not

1662
01:01:17,510 --> 01:01:16,480
an expert on museums and certainly chris

1663
01:01:19,510 --> 01:01:17,520
o'brien

1664
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:19,520
i think felt very much the same thing

1665
01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:22,240
and you came to this logical conclusion

1666
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:24,640
so i just think here when you whatever

1667
01:01:29,270 --> 01:01:27,119
is going on here i would think an

1668
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:29,280
extraordinary effort was made to take

1669
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:32,000
something totally unrelated and make it

1670
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:34,079
roswell because we need roswell we've

1671
01:01:39,109 --> 01:01:36,000
got to prove roswell and they were

1672
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:39,119
desperate and maybe that's most of it

1673
01:01:41,910 --> 01:01:40,640
i think i think if you go back and you

1674
01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:41,920
listen to tom

1675
01:01:48,549 --> 01:01:43,680
um after he announced this thing

1676
01:01:52,069 --> 01:01:50,470
yeah 2014

1677
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:52,079
um

1678
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:53,440
tom wanted

1679
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:56,880
tom wants to believe

1680
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:58,480
tom wants to prove that roswell was

1681
01:02:02,549 --> 01:02:00,000
alien

1682
01:02:05,430 --> 01:02:02,559
and he thought he had the smoking gun

1683
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:05,440
and i think that the red flags

1684
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:07,520
that would have been raised by someone

1685
01:02:13,990 --> 01:02:11,829
not quite as excited about the

1686
01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:14,000
extraterrestrial as tom was in that that

1687
01:02:16,950 --> 01:02:15,200
respect

1688
01:02:18,870 --> 01:02:16,960
might have might have caused them to be

1689
01:02:23,190 --> 01:02:18,880
a little bit more cautious

1690
01:02:25,349 --> 01:02:23,200
um they allegedly saw the slides

1691
01:02:27,030 --> 01:02:25,359
according to

1692
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:27,040
i think it was tom

1693
01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:30,000
uh talking on the exxon

1694
01:02:33,750 --> 01:02:31,440
radio show

1695
01:02:36,309 --> 01:02:33,760
that they had met with do and joe bieson

1696
01:02:39,030 --> 01:02:36,319
who was the alleged owner of the slides

1697
01:02:40,630 --> 01:02:39,040
tom and don in chicago

1698
01:02:42,309 --> 01:02:40,640
and they brought the slides so that they

1699
01:02:43,829 --> 01:02:42,319
could see that there were actual slides

1700
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:43,839
it was not something generated on a

1701
01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:45,440
computer it was an actual slide they

1702
01:02:49,589 --> 01:02:46,960
could see the mounts they could see the

1703
01:02:51,510 --> 01:02:49,599
sea of all of that dew took the slides

1704
01:02:54,150 --> 01:02:51,520
to us to

1705
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,160
kodak in rochester and said yeah the

1706
01:02:59,270 --> 01:02:56,400
mount is correct for the period the

1707
01:03:02,069 --> 01:02:59,280
chemical analysis of the emulsion for

1708
01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:02,079
the slides is correct for the period it

1709
01:03:06,789 --> 01:03:04,160
was a slide taken sometime in the late

1710
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:06,799
1940s well we now know it was taken out

1711
01:03:11,190 --> 01:03:09,520
before may of 1947 based on when that

1712
01:03:13,589 --> 01:03:11,200
mummy was moved out of that one museum

1713
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:13,599
to uh to

1714
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:16,559
montezuma's castle in arizona well let's

1715
01:03:20,870 --> 01:03:18,480
just take it from there in a moment the

1716
01:03:23,349 --> 01:03:20,880
book is roswell in the 21st century but

1717
01:03:24,549 --> 01:03:23,359
we're talking about not the roswell

1718
01:03:26,950 --> 01:03:24,559
slides

1719
01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:26,960
that title of course is kevin's because

1720
01:03:31,430 --> 01:03:30,240
it signifies the fact that a connection

1721
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:31,440
between

1722
01:03:36,789 --> 01:03:34,880
roswell and those slides was never found

1723
01:03:37,990 --> 01:03:36,799
although certainly some people tried

1724
01:03:41,750 --> 01:03:38,000
real hard

1725
01:03:45,190 --> 01:03:41,760
to make it so unfortunately they didn't

1726
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:45,200
kevin randle with goggs makai and erica

1727
01:03:59,990 --> 01:03:58,069
[Music]

1728
01:04:02,309 --> 01:04:00,000
a shout out to audible for supporting

1729
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we'd like to hear from you if you have a

1828
01:08:09,430 --> 01:08:05,920
comment or question about the paracast

1829
01:08:12,710 --> 01:08:09,440
send it to news at theparacast.com

1830
01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:12,720
that's news at theparacast.com

1831
01:08:17,030 --> 01:08:14,559
and don't forget to visit our famous

1832
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:17,040
paracast community forums at

1833
01:08:25,590 --> 01:08:23,349
so erica luke's is our guest co-host

1834
01:08:27,189 --> 01:08:25,600
chris o'brien's on the mend

1835
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:27,199
in the hospital and he's got some

1836
01:08:33,030 --> 01:08:29,920
serious stuff going on copd

1837
01:08:34,870 --> 01:08:33,040
and the flu and so you know he's getting

1838
01:08:36,390 --> 01:08:34,880
better though and the doctors are trying

1839
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:36,400
to get a good handle on ongoing

1840
01:08:40,070 --> 01:08:37,920
treatment i don't think you ever recover

1841
01:08:42,390 --> 01:08:40,080
from that i'm not sure i'm not a doctor

1842
01:08:44,709 --> 01:08:42,400
and don't play one on tv kevin randall

1843
01:08:47,269 --> 01:08:44,719
is joining us scogs makai is our

1844
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:47,279
guest panelist and we're talking here

1845
01:08:53,590 --> 01:08:50,159
about the not roswell slides and how

1846
01:08:54,390 --> 01:08:53,600
this all came to be or not be

1847
01:08:57,110 --> 01:08:54,400
so

1848
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:57,120
obviously kodak was right in the limited

1849
01:09:00,630 --> 01:08:59,199
purview of their expertise which is the

1850
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:00,640
age of the emulsion when it was

1851
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:02,960
developed and everything else

1852
01:09:07,269 --> 01:09:04,880
that only tells us a time period how do

1853
01:09:08,630 --> 01:09:07,279
you move that to roswell new mexico for

1854
01:09:10,950 --> 01:09:08,640
heaven's sake

1855
01:09:12,709 --> 01:09:10,960
the owners of the slides

1856
01:09:14,630 --> 01:09:12,719
and i go into this great detail in the

1857
01:09:15,669 --> 01:09:14,640
book by the way based on everything that

1858
01:09:17,510 --> 01:09:15,679
went on so you can see the whole

1859
01:09:19,910 --> 01:09:17,520
evolution of this but the owners of the

1860
01:09:22,390 --> 01:09:19,920
slides were a couple named the rays in

1861
01:09:25,030 --> 01:09:22,400
midland texas and he was in the oil

1862
01:09:27,110 --> 01:09:25,040
business and midland and roswell both

1863
01:09:29,749 --> 01:09:27,120
are in the permian basin

1864
01:09:31,669 --> 01:09:29,759
and so he operated in that whole area in

1865
01:09:33,749 --> 01:09:31,679
the late 1940s and they took lots and

1866
01:09:35,669 --> 01:09:33,759
lots of slides and the slide collection

1867
01:09:37,910 --> 01:09:35,679
was from them after both of them passed

1868
01:09:39,829 --> 01:09:37,920
away beeson's sister i think it was came

1869
01:09:41,749 --> 01:09:39,839
in possession of the slides

1870
01:09:43,510 --> 01:09:41,759
and found these two slides in it and

1871
01:09:44,550 --> 01:09:43,520
they decided that they showed an alien

1872
01:09:46,470 --> 01:09:44,560
creature

1873
01:09:47,990 --> 01:09:46,480
and got in touch with tom and don to

1874
01:09:50,149 --> 01:09:48,000
validate that sort of thing so the

1875
01:09:51,990 --> 01:09:50,159
slides were from the proper era they

1876
01:09:53,590 --> 01:09:52,000
looked unusual i'm not sure why you

1877
01:09:55,910 --> 01:09:53,600
would look at a slide

1878
01:09:57,669 --> 01:09:55,920
uh in a museum setting

1879
01:10:00,149 --> 01:09:57,679
and immediately assume it's an alien

1880
01:10:02,149 --> 01:10:00,159
creature i do not understand that

1881
01:10:03,830 --> 01:10:02,159
there's a placard in front of this the

1882
01:10:05,990 --> 01:10:03,840
alien creature which

1883
01:10:07,030 --> 01:10:06,000
was blurred to a point that they

1884
01:10:08,470 --> 01:10:07,040
apparently i don't know if they could

1885
01:10:09,510 --> 01:10:08,480
read it or not on the on the original

1886
01:10:12,470 --> 01:10:09,520
slide because i've never seen the

1887
01:10:13,990 --> 01:10:12,480
original slide there is discussion about

1888
01:10:15,750 --> 01:10:14,000
when they scanned them then that would

1889
01:10:17,669 --> 01:10:15,760
be doing beasts and scan the slides to

1890
01:10:20,310 --> 01:10:17,679
present that information

1891
01:10:22,390 --> 01:10:20,320
to kerry and schmidt

1892
01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:22,400
that they they did something to even

1893
01:10:26,550 --> 01:10:24,960
further obscure the placard dew says no

1894
01:10:28,630 --> 01:10:26,560
they didn't do anything like that at all

1895
01:10:30,310 --> 01:10:28,640
the scans were what the scans were i do

1896
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:30,320
know that the the slides that were

1897
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,840
presented with slides number nine and

1898
01:10:35,189 --> 01:10:33,760
not the slide number eleven i'm

1899
01:10:37,030 --> 01:10:35,199
wondering what slide number ten should

1900
01:10:39,270 --> 01:10:37,040
look like and maybe the placard was

1901
01:10:41,750 --> 01:10:39,280
readable in that slide i don't know

1902
01:10:44,390 --> 01:10:41,760
but the point is uh within 24 hours or

1903
01:10:46,229 --> 01:10:44,400
24 hours 48 hours of these of the a

1904
01:10:47,830 --> 01:10:46,239
higher resolution scan being being

1905
01:10:49,510 --> 01:10:47,840
available and that was after the program

1906
01:10:52,310 --> 01:10:49,520
in new mexico city

1907
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:52,320
in may of 2015 the placard was decoded

1908
01:10:55,830 --> 01:10:53,520
and we realized that you know it says

1909
01:10:57,350 --> 01:10:55,840
it's a mummy of a two-year-old child

1910
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:57,360
two-year-old boy

1911
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:00,320
so i mean their information was there

1912
01:11:04,630 --> 01:11:02,800
if they'd followed the leads properly

1913
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:04,640
and tom said that they had seen the

1914
01:11:09,189 --> 01:11:06,880
original slides but it was due that

1915
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:09,199
carried him to kodak and it seemed that

1916
01:11:12,790 --> 01:11:10,960
there were other things going on that

1917
01:11:14,790 --> 01:11:12,800
kind of raised a red flag but the

1918
01:11:16,390 --> 01:11:14,800
connection to roswell apparently came

1919
01:11:18,550 --> 01:11:16,400
from the rays because they happened to

1920
01:11:20,630 --> 01:11:18,560
live in the midland area and that's part

1921
01:11:23,110 --> 01:11:20,640
of the premium basin and and in his

1922
01:11:25,669 --> 01:11:23,120
geological survey area

1923
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:25,679
bernard ray got into the roswell area so

1924
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:27,280
they just made this

1925
01:11:30,550 --> 01:11:28,960
tom made the assumption and tom made the

1926
01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:30,560
assumption based on

1927
01:11:34,470 --> 01:11:33,520
there was a spot on the skull of the

1928
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:34,480
mummy

1929
01:11:39,270 --> 01:11:36,960
and he remembered in his frankie rose

1930
01:11:42,070 --> 01:11:39,280
description of child of the earth which

1931
01:11:44,070 --> 01:11:42,080
is a cricket and her father when he

1932
01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:44,080
described the alien creatures that he'd

1933
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:46,000
seen to frankie rowe

1934
01:11:49,590 --> 01:11:48,560
mentioned the child of the earth so tom

1935
01:11:51,669 --> 01:11:49,600
saw that

1936
01:11:53,990 --> 01:11:51,679
that image on the

1937
01:11:56,149 --> 01:11:54,000
skull of the mummy and he immediately

1938
01:11:57,750 --> 01:11:56,159
assumed it was roswell don has said

1939
01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:57,760
repeatedly he

1940
01:12:02,310 --> 01:12:00,080
never really connected it directly to

1941
01:12:03,910 --> 01:12:02,320
roswell at any time although you listen

1942
01:12:05,990 --> 01:12:03,920
to some of the interviews he'd give he

1943
01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:06,000
certainly does seem to suggest that tom

1944
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:07,920
was always of the opinion that it was of

1945
01:12:12,470 --> 01:12:10,000
roswell and it may be that

1946
01:12:14,470 --> 01:12:12,480
one thing on the skull of the mummy that

1947
01:12:17,110 --> 01:12:14,480
led him in that direction

1948
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:17,120
now after all is said and done after the

1949
01:12:21,910 --> 01:12:19,199
event or the disaster

1950
01:12:23,430 --> 01:12:21,920
in mexico city we did a couple of shows

1951
01:12:25,510 --> 01:12:23,440
on the subject and

1952
01:12:27,990 --> 01:12:25,520
you were on one of the shows

1953
01:12:29,990 --> 01:12:28,000
and we saw this disassembled and it

1954
01:12:31,750 --> 01:12:30,000
seemed so obvious

1955
01:12:34,790 --> 01:12:31,760
in retrospect though i could see the

1956
01:12:37,030 --> 01:12:34,800
desperation today if i asked tom carrey

1957
01:12:39,350 --> 01:12:37,040
and don schmidt what do you think what's

1958
01:12:42,950 --> 01:12:39,360
your take on the roswell or not roswell

1959
01:12:44,870 --> 01:12:42,960
slides what will they say i am hesitant

1960
01:12:46,790 --> 01:12:44,880
to put words in their mouths because i i

1961
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:46,800
the only thing i'll say is the last time

1962
01:12:51,030 --> 01:12:48,400
i spoke to don

1963
01:12:52,790 --> 01:12:51,040
he seemed to accept that it was not

1964
01:12:55,910 --> 01:12:52,800
an alien creature

1965
01:12:57,750 --> 01:12:55,920
and the last i heard from tom and he was

1966
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:57,760
on the x zone

1967
01:13:03,510 --> 01:13:00,960
uh with rob mcconnell talking about this

1968
01:13:06,149 --> 01:13:03,520
he seemed to be of the opinion that it's

1969
01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:06,159
not completely a closed case there's

1970
01:13:08,550 --> 01:13:06,960
still

1971
01:13:10,790 --> 01:13:08,560
a possibility

1972
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:10,800
that it may be an alien creature he has

1973
01:13:16,470 --> 01:13:13,600
not completely closed the door although

1974
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,480
i think he's got it so it's going to be

1975
01:13:20,870 --> 01:13:18,320
very hard to get through it i mean he's

1976
01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:20,880
just about got it closed so you might

1977
01:13:23,510 --> 01:13:22,719
say tom is kind of holding the door on

1978
01:13:25,910 --> 01:13:23,520
that

1979
01:13:28,470 --> 01:13:25,920
and don is kind of closed the door on it

1980
01:13:30,790 --> 01:13:28,480
it kind of reminds me in a way of

1981
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:30,800
closing the door on mj 12 after all

1982
01:13:35,590 --> 01:13:33,520
these years and looking at your book and

1983
01:13:37,669 --> 01:13:35,600
i have to tell you ladies and gentlemen

1984
01:13:39,669 --> 01:13:37,679
there are what over 700 separate

1985
01:13:43,110 --> 01:13:39,679
references distinct references in this

1986
01:13:47,110 --> 01:13:43,120
book this amazing piece of research

1987
01:13:48,709 --> 01:13:47,120
you go into the mj 12. and there's one

1988
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:48,719
thing that struck me here so william

1989
01:13:53,350 --> 01:13:50,480
moore was writing a science fiction book

1990
01:13:57,189 --> 01:13:53,360
before mj 12 came out right

1991
01:13:59,750 --> 01:13:57,199
absolutely and that kind of predicted

1992
01:14:01,910 --> 01:13:59,760
some of the elements of mj 12. it was a

1993
01:14:04,630 --> 01:14:01,920
blueprint for mj12

1994
01:14:06,470 --> 01:14:04,640
and he was working with a fella named

1995
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:06,480
well bob pratt i don't know why i was

1996
01:14:10,470 --> 01:14:08,640
hesitating there

1997
01:14:11,669 --> 01:14:10,480
to do this book

1998
01:14:13,590 --> 01:14:11,679
about

1999
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:13,600
project aquarius

2000
01:14:17,750 --> 01:14:15,600
now if you ask some of the proponents of

2001
01:14:19,590 --> 01:14:17,760
mj12 today

2002
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:19,600
about project aquarius they're going i

2003
01:14:22,229 --> 01:14:20,640
don't know what you're talking about

2004
01:14:23,669 --> 01:14:22,239
project aquarius was the first stuff

2005
01:14:25,510 --> 01:14:23,679
that came out that

2006
01:14:27,270 --> 01:14:25,520
preceded mj12

2007
01:14:28,870 --> 01:14:27,280
but they were writing a book

2008
01:14:31,510 --> 01:14:28,880
about a super

2009
01:14:33,590 --> 01:14:31,520
osi agent that kind of cracked the

2010
01:14:35,830 --> 01:14:33,600
project aquarius and then and the the

2011
01:14:38,790 --> 01:14:35,840
blueprint for mj 12 is this science

2012
01:14:39,830 --> 01:14:38,800
fiction novel and when the mj 12 stuff

2013
01:14:41,270 --> 01:14:39,840
started

2014
01:14:42,790 --> 01:14:41,280
leaking out

2015
01:14:44,870 --> 01:14:42,800
pratt called more and said maybe we

2016
01:14:47,590 --> 01:14:44,880
ought to dust off our novel again

2017
01:14:50,390 --> 01:14:47,600
get that going so so mj 12 has

2018
01:14:52,470 --> 01:14:50,400
predicated or preceded by this

2019
01:14:53,350 --> 01:14:52,480
by the science fiction novel that bob

2020
01:14:56,470 --> 01:14:53,360
pratt

2021
01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:56,480
bill moore and probably richard doty

2022
01:15:00,709 --> 01:14:59,120
were involved in creating back in

2023
01:15:02,709 --> 01:15:00,719
1981-1982

2024
01:15:04,550 --> 01:15:02,719
all this is documented through

2025
01:15:07,270 --> 01:15:04,560
information that was provided by bob

2026
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:07,280
pratt and i think barry

2027
01:15:11,110 --> 01:15:10,080
mary greenwood and brad sparks did a

2028
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:11,120
paper

2029
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:13,199
at a mufon conference

2030
01:15:16,310 --> 01:15:14,159
about

2031
01:15:17,590 --> 01:15:16,320
all of this as well uh laying all this

2032
01:15:19,350 --> 01:15:17,600
stuff out

2033
01:15:21,830 --> 01:15:19,360
so i was able to use an awful lot of

2034
01:15:23,110 --> 01:15:21,840
their research to kind of substantiate

2035
01:15:25,990 --> 01:15:23,120
some of this and then other things that

2036
01:15:29,110 --> 01:15:26,000
we learned going forward you know i i

2037
01:15:31,430 --> 01:15:29,120
would ask i asked the woods about um

2038
01:15:32,790 --> 01:15:31,440
project coerce explain who the woods are

2039
01:15:33,750 --> 01:15:32,800
for those who aren't acquainted with

2040
01:15:37,430 --> 01:15:33,760
them

2041
01:15:38,709 --> 01:15:37,440
that's a good point uh bob and ryan wood

2042
01:15:40,149 --> 01:15:38,719
are the

2043
01:15:41,990 --> 01:15:40,159
now the guys who are running the

2044
01:15:44,310 --> 01:15:42,000
majestic documents website and they've

2045
01:15:46,310 --> 01:15:44,320
been involved in the research of the uh

2046
01:15:47,830 --> 01:15:46,320
mj12 documents for years and years and

2047
01:15:49,669 --> 01:15:47,840
years and both sincerely believe that

2048
01:15:51,590 --> 01:15:49,679
the documents are authentic

2049
01:15:54,070 --> 01:15:51,600
and they so

2050
01:15:54,870 --> 01:15:54,080
i uh sent an email to

2051
01:15:55,990 --> 01:15:54,880
uh

2052
01:15:58,149 --> 01:15:56,000
bob wood

2053
01:15:59,669 --> 01:15:58,159
dr robert wood he was a aerospace

2054
01:16:00,870 --> 01:15:59,679
engineer i believe

2055
01:16:02,709 --> 01:16:00,880
um

2056
01:16:04,950 --> 01:16:02,719
about this and i asked him about project

2057
01:16:06,870 --> 01:16:04,960
aquarius he said i'll get back to you

2058
01:16:08,630 --> 01:16:06,880
well the book is out and has been out

2059
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:08,640
for quite a while the book was done

2060
01:16:11,430 --> 01:16:10,000
quite a while ago and i still haven't

2061
01:16:13,270 --> 01:16:11,440
heard his answer

2062
01:16:15,110 --> 01:16:13,280
i um sent the same email to stan

2063
01:16:16,390 --> 01:16:15,120
friedman and stan friedman says i don't

2064
01:16:18,470 --> 01:16:16,400
know what you're talking about project

2065
01:16:20,550 --> 01:16:18,480
aquarius you know and i've got you know

2066
01:16:22,149 --> 01:16:20,560
the email from from stan friedman about

2067
01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:22,159
that ignoring project acquires

2068
01:16:26,950 --> 01:16:24,320
completely but that's the precursor to

2069
01:16:29,110 --> 01:16:26,960
to mj12 let's put this together in our

2070
01:16:31,270 --> 01:16:29,120
next segment with kevin randall and

2071
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:31,280
erica luke's and goggs mackay we're

2072
01:16:34,630 --> 01:16:32,080
going to

2073
01:16:37,830 --> 01:16:34,640
have questions from listeners included

2074
01:16:40,550 --> 01:16:37,840
in our next few segments okay with gene

2075
01:16:44,930 --> 01:16:40,560
and erica and goggs you're in the

2076
01:16:44,940 --> 01:16:48,550
[Music]

2077
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:53,189
thank you for listening to gcn

2078
01:16:57,669 --> 01:16:54,110
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2170
01:20:39,270 --> 01:20:37,120
personalized list of senior living

2171
01:20:41,590 --> 01:20:39,280
communities you can visit if you have

2172
01:20:43,990 --> 01:20:41,600
questions about senior care for your mom

2173
01:20:46,310 --> 01:20:44,000
or dad there's a place for answers a

2174
01:20:47,590 --> 01:20:46,320
place for mom call a place for mom in

2175
01:20:49,510 --> 01:20:47,600
the next 10 minutes to get your free

2176
01:20:51,189 --> 01:20:49,520
ebook on financing senior care as well

2177
01:20:54,030 --> 01:20:51,199
as free information on senior living

2178
01:21:00,260 --> 01:20:54,040
communities in your area call

2179
01:21:00,270 --> 01:21:06,070
[Music]

2180
01:21:09,990 --> 01:21:07,910
hi this is bryce abel i'm the producer

2181
01:21:11,830 --> 01:21:10,000
of dark skies the co-author of ad after

2182
01:21:15,110 --> 01:21:11,840
disclosure and you are listening to the

2183
01:21:16,410 --> 01:21:15,120
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

2184
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:16,420
radio

2185
01:21:25,430 --> 01:21:23,520
[Music]

2186
01:21:26,390 --> 01:21:25,440
all right so we have to keep this pretty

2187
01:21:28,950 --> 01:21:26,400
obvious

2188
01:21:30,790 --> 01:21:28,960
and down to earth here we have a sci-fi

2189
01:21:32,310 --> 01:21:30,800
book that predicts something just like

2190
01:21:33,669 --> 01:21:32,320
for example when george adamsky

2191
01:21:36,669 --> 01:21:33,679
allegedly met

2192
01:21:39,110 --> 01:21:36,679
aliens in the desert in california in

2193
01:21:40,630 --> 01:21:39,120
1952 he wrote a book several years

2194
01:21:41,669 --> 01:21:40,640
earlier that kind of predicted what

2195
01:21:44,390 --> 01:21:41,679
ended up

2196
01:21:46,790 --> 01:21:44,400
so now we have this novel that kind of

2197
01:21:50,950 --> 01:21:46,800
sets the framework for

2198
01:21:52,390 --> 01:21:50,960
mj 12. so therefore kevin d randall we

2199
01:21:55,350 --> 01:21:52,400
assume

2200
01:21:57,990 --> 01:21:55,360
that either richard doty or william

2201
01:22:00,390 --> 01:21:58,000
moore were responsible somehow

2202
01:22:01,430 --> 01:22:00,400
you the other thing you have to remember

2203
01:22:03,510 --> 01:22:01,440
is

2204
01:22:05,350 --> 01:22:03,520
bill moore said to stan friedman i think

2205
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:05,360
he said it to brad sparks

2206
01:22:08,870 --> 01:22:07,679
friedman told me about it that bill

2207
01:22:11,430 --> 01:22:08,880
morgan said he was thinking about

2208
01:22:14,070 --> 01:22:11,440
creating a roswell type document that he

2209
01:22:15,910 --> 01:22:14,080
could show to some of the witnesses to

2210
01:22:17,270 --> 01:22:15,920
suggest that they were free from their

2211
01:22:19,030 --> 01:22:17,280
security hosts and they could talk to

2212
01:22:20,629 --> 01:22:19,040
him about the roswell case

2213
01:22:22,550 --> 01:22:20,639
he was talking about creating a roswell

2214
01:22:24,550 --> 01:22:22,560
document and then you know 18 months

2215
01:22:25,910 --> 01:22:24,560
later he's got the majestic 12 document

2216
01:22:28,229 --> 01:22:25,920
in his hand

2217
01:22:30,790 --> 01:22:28,239
so i mean there's another another clue

2218
01:22:33,110 --> 01:22:30,800
of what's going on so yes we've got a

2219
01:22:34,870 --> 01:22:33,120
book a science fiction book by bob pratt

2220
01:22:36,709 --> 01:22:34,880
and bill moore and

2221
01:22:38,390 --> 01:22:36,719
frat said there was there was a third

2222
01:22:40,709 --> 01:22:38,400
author on it and he wasn't sure who it

2223
01:22:42,709 --> 01:22:40,719
was because he he was using a pen name

2224
01:22:44,629 --> 01:22:42,719
but he thinks it was richard doty so

2225
01:22:46,390 --> 01:22:44,639
we've got that book and the next thing

2226
01:22:48,870 --> 01:22:46,400
we know we've got the documents showing

2227
01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:48,880
up at the home of jamie chandera and i'm

2228
01:22:52,470 --> 01:22:50,880
trying to figure out jamie chandare

2229
01:22:53,750 --> 01:22:52,480
being a film producer and a friend of

2230
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:53,760
bill moore and i'm trying to figure out

2231
01:22:57,510 --> 01:22:56,320
okay i've got these documents these mj12

2232
01:22:59,590 --> 01:22:57,520
documents

2233
01:23:00,390 --> 01:22:59,600
that are going to really blow the lid

2234
01:23:02,310 --> 01:23:00,400
off

2235
01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:02,320
the flying saucer field

2236
01:23:04,790 --> 01:23:03,760
and rather than going to the new york

2237
01:23:06,390 --> 01:23:04,800
times

2238
01:23:08,070 --> 01:23:06,400
or the washington post

2239
01:23:10,470 --> 01:23:08,080
or cbs news

2240
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:10,480
i go to some obscure producer in in

2241
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:12,880
hollywood and send him the documents for

2242
01:23:17,430 --> 01:23:15,360
him to publicize them this makes no

2243
01:23:18,950 --> 01:23:17,440
sense to me whatsoever plus we have the

2244
01:23:21,189 --> 01:23:18,960
problem with the provenance where the

2245
01:23:22,870 --> 01:23:21,199
documents come from well we don't know

2246
01:23:24,790 --> 01:23:22,880
uh what government agency are they from

2247
01:23:26,149 --> 01:23:24,800
well we don't know

2248
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:26,159
how did they come to you well they came

2249
01:23:30,310 --> 01:23:28,480
to me in an envelope on a roll of 35

2250
01:23:31,750 --> 01:23:30,320
millimeter film but i don't know who

2251
01:23:33,669 --> 01:23:31,760
sent them so you've got a real problem

2252
01:23:35,350 --> 01:23:33,679
with provenance there and i actually

2253
01:23:36,870 --> 01:23:35,360
asked stan friedman about that one stu

2254
01:23:39,350 --> 01:23:36,880
he says well that that's probably

2255
01:23:41,110 --> 01:23:39,360
because sharing these documents with

2256
01:23:42,470 --> 01:23:41,120
those not authorized your classified

2257
01:23:44,790 --> 01:23:42,480
information could get you in a lot of

2258
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:44,800
trouble and i'm thinking about pentagon

2259
01:23:49,510 --> 01:23:47,679
papers i'm thinking deep throat i'm

2260
01:23:51,189 --> 01:23:49,520
thinking all of these things that have

2261
01:23:52,870 --> 01:23:51,199
had gone in the past there was always a

2262
01:23:54,310 --> 01:23:52,880
provenance the people who were deeply

2263
01:23:56,310 --> 01:23:54,320
involved in this knew where the

2264
01:23:57,669 --> 01:23:56,320
information was coming from i mean bob

2265
01:24:00,390 --> 01:23:57,679
woodward knew

2266
01:24:03,030 --> 01:24:00,400
that it was mark mark freeze i think it

2267
01:24:05,030 --> 01:24:03,040
was who was the d who's deep throat it

2268
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:05,040
was mark felt but it doesn't really

2269
01:24:08,550 --> 01:24:07,040
matter at this point he knew who the guy

2270
01:24:10,470 --> 01:24:08,560
was he knew where it was coming from it

2271
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:10,480
wasn't as if the information wasn't

2272
01:24:15,510 --> 01:24:12,800
there mj 12 we don't know where it came

2273
01:24:17,350 --> 01:24:15,520
from we have no clue so that's a real

2274
01:24:19,030 --> 01:24:17,360
issue with mj 12 that they just don't

2275
01:24:22,310 --> 01:24:19,040
want to seem to address they hold the

2276
01:24:24,310 --> 01:24:22,320
door on this thing being authentic

2277
01:24:25,750 --> 01:24:24,320
without having any evidence to prove

2278
01:24:28,070 --> 01:24:25,760
it's authentic and everything that's

2279
01:24:30,070 --> 01:24:28,080
been done since then has led to the

2280
01:24:32,470 --> 01:24:30,080
conclusion it's it's not authentic and

2281
01:24:34,470 --> 01:24:32,480
one of the best examples of that is in

2282
01:24:36,470 --> 01:24:34,480
the eisenhower briefing document which

2283
01:24:38,229 --> 01:24:36,480
is the thing that kind of lays out mj 12

2284
01:24:41,270 --> 01:24:38,239
for everybody there's one paragraph that

2285
01:24:42,629 --> 01:24:41,280
talks about a crash of a ufo in del rio

2286
01:24:44,470 --> 01:24:42,639
texas

2287
01:24:46,709 --> 01:24:44,480
and that information came from a guy

2288
01:24:48,470 --> 01:24:46,719
named robert willingham willingham

2289
01:24:51,990 --> 01:24:48,480
claimed to be a high-ranking air force

2290
01:24:54,550 --> 01:24:52,000
fighter pilot who was involved in

2291
01:24:56,390 --> 01:24:54,560
seeing this crashed ufo

2292
01:24:58,070 --> 01:24:56,400
just over the border in mexico that was

2293
01:24:59,350 --> 01:24:58,080
recovered by the mexicans i guess and

2294
01:25:02,310 --> 01:24:59,360
maybe got to the united states but

2295
01:25:03,910 --> 01:25:02,320
willingham told this story about that

2296
01:25:05,669 --> 01:25:03,920
it turns out willingham was not a

2297
01:25:07,510 --> 01:25:05,679
high-ranking air force officer he was

2298
01:25:09,669 --> 01:25:07,520
not a fighter pilot

2299
01:25:11,830 --> 01:25:09,679
the original story which i actually

2300
01:25:14,870 --> 01:25:11,840
found the original story he told in a

2301
01:25:15,990 --> 01:25:14,880
1968 version of the sky look which was

2302
01:25:19,669 --> 01:25:16,000
mufon's

2303
01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:19,679
original publication it's march of 1968

2304
01:25:22,390 --> 01:25:20,800
it's on page three and there's a

2305
01:25:24,950 --> 01:25:22,400
paragraph about colonel robert b

2306
01:25:26,790 --> 01:25:24,960
willingham of the civil air patrol not

2307
01:25:30,149 --> 01:25:26,800
the united states air force talking

2308
01:25:32,070 --> 01:25:30,159
about how in 1948 he was flying f94s

2309
01:25:34,550 --> 01:25:32,080
with the air force and they were alerted

2310
01:25:36,870 --> 01:25:34,560
that something had crossed the dew line

2311
01:25:38,629 --> 01:25:36,880
and the thing had crashed in mexico and

2312
01:25:40,629 --> 01:25:38,639
he he got to see the remnants of this

2313
01:25:41,510 --> 01:25:40,639
well in 1948 when this allegedly took

2314
01:25:44,149 --> 01:25:41,520
place

2315
01:25:46,870 --> 01:25:44,159
the dew line didn't exist the f-94 was

2316
01:25:48,550 --> 01:25:46,880
not an operational aircraft and later on

2317
01:25:50,229 --> 01:25:48,560
he changed the dates he changed the

2318
01:25:52,470 --> 01:25:50,239
times he changed the locations he

2319
01:25:54,310 --> 01:25:52,480
changed all this kind of stuff and when

2320
01:25:55,910 --> 01:25:54,320
i tried to check out his military

2321
01:25:58,510 --> 01:25:55,920
credentials i found out that he had been

2322
01:26:02,310 --> 01:25:58,520
in the army from december of

2323
01:26:04,629 --> 01:26:02,320
1945 to january of 1947 so he was

2324
01:26:06,790 --> 01:26:04,639
technically a veteran of world war ii

2325
01:26:09,030 --> 01:26:06,800
the war didn't officially end until 1946

2326
01:26:10,629 --> 01:26:09,040
so anybody who served in the military

2327
01:26:12,229 --> 01:26:10,639
even after the shooting had stopped and

2328
01:26:14,550 --> 01:26:12,239
the surrenders had been fired were

2329
01:26:15,830 --> 01:26:14,560
considered veterans of world war ii he

2330
01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:15,840
claimed to have been in korea there's

2331
01:26:20,070 --> 01:26:18,000
absolutely no evidence of that pictures

2332
01:26:21,669 --> 01:26:20,080
that were taken of him in his alleged

2333
01:26:23,430 --> 01:26:21,679
air force uniform people say well how

2334
01:26:25,270 --> 01:26:23,440
could he do this in the 1960s here's a

2335
01:26:27,590 --> 01:26:25,280
picture of him in his air force uniform

2336
01:26:29,189 --> 01:26:27,600
in the 1960s and i looked at i said nah

2337
01:26:30,950 --> 01:26:29,199
you know that's a civil air patrol

2338
01:26:33,030 --> 01:26:30,960
uniform and the giveaway is that metal

2339
01:26:34,950 --> 01:26:33,040
plate on his shirt that says you know

2340
01:26:37,669 --> 01:26:34,960
civil air patrol it's kind of a dead

2341
01:26:40,950 --> 01:26:37,679
giveaway guys you know i went to the

2342
01:26:43,110 --> 01:26:40,960
documents in st louis i went to the air

2343
01:26:44,470 --> 01:26:43,120
reserve personnel center in denver to

2344
01:26:47,430 --> 01:26:44,480
try to check his records and it could

2345
01:26:49,990 --> 01:26:47,440
not be checked out but the point is

2346
01:26:52,149 --> 01:26:50,000
willingham told a story to todd zekkel

2347
01:26:53,270 --> 01:26:52,159
zekko wanted to write a book about this

2348
01:26:55,590 --> 01:26:53,280
crash

2349
01:26:57,669 --> 01:26:55,600
and had relayed the information to

2350
01:27:00,870 --> 01:26:57,679
bill moore so moore

2351
01:27:02,470 --> 01:27:00,880
inserts that information into the well

2352
01:27:04,709 --> 01:27:02,480
i just accused bill moore of forging the

2353
01:27:06,390 --> 01:27:04,719
document didn't i bill moore inserts the

2354
01:27:08,790 --> 01:27:06,400
paragraph into the eisenhower briefing

2355
01:27:12,070 --> 01:27:08,800
paper about this crash in del rio texas

2356
01:27:14,709 --> 01:27:12,080
in december of 1950. the thing's a hoax

2357
01:27:16,629 --> 01:27:14,719
if the mj 12 document is authentic how

2358
01:27:18,870 --> 01:27:16,639
did this oak hoax information that

2359
01:27:20,149 --> 01:27:18,880
didn't exist one of the eisenhower

2360
01:27:21,990 --> 01:27:20,159
briefing documents supposedly written in

2361
01:27:23,430 --> 01:27:22,000
1952 how did that end up in the

2362
01:27:24,870 --> 01:27:23,440
eisenhower briefing document if the

2363
01:27:26,550 --> 01:27:24,880
document is authentic and the answer is

2364
01:27:29,030 --> 01:27:26,560
it couldn't possibly have

2365
01:27:32,149 --> 01:27:29,040
but we can we can link all of this stuff

2366
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:32,159
together from from moore to zeckel to

2367
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:33,360
willingham

2368
01:27:36,709 --> 01:27:35,440
you know step one two three and how it

2369
01:27:39,030 --> 01:27:36,719
ends up in the eisenhower briefing

2370
01:27:41,189 --> 01:27:39,040
document all right now this seems so

2371
01:27:42,229 --> 01:27:41,199
obvious in retrospect when you look at

2372
01:27:44,629 --> 01:27:42,239
it

2373
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:44,639
and stanton friedman has been selling

2374
01:27:48,629 --> 01:27:46,960
mj12 for years

2375
01:27:50,870 --> 01:27:48,639
after all this he still won't listen and

2376
01:27:53,110 --> 01:27:50,880
say you know what maybe i was wrong come

2377
01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:53,120
on stan

2378
01:27:57,350 --> 01:27:55,360
the last i heard on this

2379
01:27:58,709 --> 01:27:57,360
once again i'm in roswell new mexico

2380
01:28:01,910 --> 01:27:58,719
with everybody

2381
01:28:03,830 --> 01:28:01,920
and i i think it it may be it may be

2382
01:28:06,390 --> 01:28:03,840
2012 i don't remember

2383
01:28:08,390 --> 01:28:06,400
whether it was 2011 2012 but i remember

2384
01:28:10,629 --> 01:28:08,400
stan saying to me i believe you're right

2385
01:28:12,229 --> 01:28:10,639
on willingham meaning

2386
01:28:13,590 --> 01:28:12,239
he's making up his story but you're

2387
01:28:15,430 --> 01:28:13,600
wrong about the eisenhower briefing

2388
01:28:17,110 --> 01:28:15,440
document

2389
01:28:19,510 --> 01:28:17,120
well the story's faint

2390
01:28:21,510 --> 01:28:19,520
you know uh

2391
01:28:23,189 --> 01:28:21,520
moore believed it was real i i you know

2392
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:23,199
stan once said to me

2393
01:28:25,669 --> 01:28:24,320
um

2394
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:25,679
you know how do you prove prove a

2395
01:28:28,229 --> 01:28:26,880
negative you know

2396
01:28:30,550 --> 01:28:28,239
prove that there was no crash on the

2397
01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:30,560
plains of san agustin for example so as

2398
01:28:35,350 --> 01:28:33,360
a joke i sent him the mj12 document

2399
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:35,360
because it doesn't mention it

2400
01:28:37,830 --> 01:28:36,719
you know i thought that was pretty funny

2401
01:28:39,270 --> 01:28:37,840
on my part

2402
01:28:40,629 --> 01:28:39,280
but he um

2403
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:40,639
he said that

2404
01:28:43,750 --> 01:28:42,239
the the difference was there were bodies

2405
01:28:45,350 --> 01:28:43,760
recovered there and they wanted to keep

2406
01:28:47,030 --> 01:28:45,360
the information away from the president

2407
01:28:48,629 --> 01:28:47,040
so they didn't put it in the mj12

2408
01:28:51,270 --> 01:28:48,639
document so you've got a a real

2409
01:28:53,430 --> 01:28:51,280
dichotomy here if mj-12 is real how can

2410
01:28:55,110 --> 01:28:53,440
the plane susana guest and crash be real

2411
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:55,120
and if that's real how can the

2412
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:57,120
mj-12 document be real you know it's

2413
01:29:01,590 --> 01:28:59,199
it's a a real disconnect there an

2414
01:29:04,870 --> 01:29:01,600
intellect disconnect but stan continues

2415
01:29:06,629 --> 01:29:04,880
to hold the door on mj-12 being

2416
01:29:08,709 --> 01:29:06,639
authentic

2417
01:29:10,390 --> 01:29:08,719
and i don't know

2418
01:29:13,270 --> 01:29:10,400
i don't know why

2419
01:29:15,590 --> 01:29:13,280
he won't look at the evidence um

2420
01:29:17,830 --> 01:29:15,600
that i think is overwhelming anybody

2421
01:29:20,470 --> 01:29:17,840
that looks at the evidence

2422
01:29:21,990 --> 01:29:20,480
with a dispassionate view

2423
01:29:24,390 --> 01:29:22,000
has to come to the conclusion that there

2424
01:29:26,149 --> 01:29:24,400
are real problems not the least of which

2425
01:29:28,070 --> 01:29:26,159
is as i said the lack of provenance for

2426
01:29:30,070 --> 01:29:28,080
the for the original documents remember

2427
01:29:33,030 --> 01:29:30,080
cbs news did a thing on

2428
01:29:35,590 --> 01:29:33,040
george bush's air guard service

2429
01:29:37,510 --> 01:29:35,600
and they used four or five documents

2430
01:29:40,709 --> 01:29:37,520
that they had received they didn't have

2431
01:29:42,870 --> 01:29:40,719
the original documents like mj12

2432
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:42,880
they didn't know who the author of the

2433
01:29:48,310 --> 01:29:45,760
documents were like mj12

2434
01:29:50,149 --> 01:29:48,320
yet they used them on the air

2435
01:29:52,470 --> 01:29:50,159
saying you know this underscores that

2436
01:29:55,590 --> 01:29:52,480
president bush did not complete his air

2437
01:29:57,590 --> 01:29:55,600
guard service properly and within

2438
01:29:59,270 --> 01:29:57,600
a matter of days

2439
01:30:01,510 --> 01:29:59,280
it was it was pretty well shown that the

2440
01:30:02,870 --> 01:30:01,520
documents were fake you know i did an

2441
01:30:05,510 --> 01:30:02,880
article about

2442
01:30:08,709 --> 01:30:05,520
this as an expert in typography

2443
01:30:09,590 --> 01:30:08,719
for my tech blog at technical.com

2444
01:30:12,070 --> 01:30:09,600
and

2445
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:12,080
what i pointed out here is if you look

2446
01:30:16,950 --> 01:30:14,639
at the structure of this document

2447
01:30:18,149 --> 01:30:16,960
forgetting all the military stuff

2448
01:30:22,149 --> 01:30:18,159
just

2449
01:30:24,470 --> 01:30:22,159
the type used it was done on a computer

2450
01:30:26,310 --> 01:30:24,480
it wasn't done in the way that it would

2451
01:30:29,430 --> 01:30:26,320
have been done

2452
01:30:31,750 --> 01:30:29,440
if the document was real it was done

2453
01:30:33,030 --> 01:30:31,760
on a personal computer from the 90s

2454
01:30:34,870 --> 01:30:33,040
whatever

2455
01:30:37,590 --> 01:30:34,880
couldn't have happened we've got more to

2456
01:30:39,669 --> 01:30:37,600
come with kevin randall and erica luke's

2457
01:30:49,189 --> 01:30:39,679
and gene steinberg and goggs mackay

2458
01:30:53,310 --> 01:30:52,470
thank you for listening to gcn

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visit

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neighbors i want to tell you about my

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expensive than that other app that you

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whatever the case back then jordan

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dunlevy is still in love with the memory

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of lauren the woman he'd lost so many

2521
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years before in bookstore on the sen the

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2567
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hi this is don ecker and you are tuned

2568
01:35:09,110 --> 01:35:06,719
in to the paracast let me tell you what

2569
01:35:12,470 --> 01:35:09,120
you're going to hear stuff here that you

2570
01:35:15,510 --> 01:35:12,480
probably won't hear anywhere else hear

2571
01:35:16,950 --> 01:35:15,520
that george snorri

2572
01:35:19,030 --> 01:35:16,960
in case you're wondering about the noise

2573
01:35:21,270 --> 01:35:19,040
in the background we have gardeners who

2574
01:35:24,390 --> 01:35:21,280
have no respect for

2575
01:35:26,709 --> 01:35:24,400
anyone's need for quietness

2576
01:35:30,390 --> 01:35:26,719
but that will disappear shortly

2577
01:35:32,310 --> 01:35:30,400
we have kevin randall and erica luke's

2578
01:35:34,149 --> 01:35:32,320
in gog's makai and we're

2579
01:35:35,669 --> 01:35:34,159
trying to put together the nail in the

2580
01:35:38,310 --> 01:35:35,679
coffin for roswell i don't know

2581
01:35:39,270 --> 01:35:38,320
certainly for the mj 12 documents but

2582
01:35:41,189 --> 01:35:39,280
kevin

2583
01:35:42,629 --> 01:35:41,199
let's separate one more thing here it's

2584
01:35:45,830 --> 01:35:42,639
not just

2585
01:35:48,470 --> 01:35:45,840
the eisenhower briefing document

2586
01:35:51,110 --> 01:35:48,480
that's involved here according to stan

2587
01:35:52,870 --> 01:35:51,120
friedman he had gone to the archives and

2588
01:35:54,310 --> 01:35:52,880
he found a whole bunch of these things

2589
01:35:56,229 --> 01:35:54,320
some of which are real and some of which

2590
01:35:57,270 --> 01:35:56,239
are fake how does that happen there's

2591
01:35:59,910 --> 01:35:57,280
there's a lot of people out there

2592
01:36:03,270 --> 01:35:59,920
creating these mj12 documents

2593
01:36:04,790 --> 01:36:03,280
the uh problem that we run into is

2594
01:36:06,070 --> 01:36:04,800
you know the the one thing that he's

2595
01:36:07,990 --> 01:36:06,080
found i think that's been found in the

2596
01:36:10,550 --> 01:36:08,000
archives was not found by stan was found

2597
01:36:13,669 --> 01:36:10,560
by bill moore which was the color 20

2598
01:36:15,750 --> 01:36:13,679
memo which is supposedly on a

2599
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:15,760
onion skin paper in a file where it

2600
01:36:18,790 --> 01:36:16,800
shouldn't have been it hadn't been

2601
01:36:21,350 --> 01:36:18,800
properly declassified as it should have

2602
01:36:23,110 --> 01:36:21,360
been before that document was released

2603
01:36:25,430 --> 01:36:23,120
that mentions mj12 and i think what

2604
01:36:27,669 --> 01:36:25,440
happens here is somebody gets a hold of

2605
01:36:29,110 --> 01:36:27,679
an authentic document and retypes it and

2606
01:36:31,750 --> 01:36:29,120
inserts the

2607
01:36:32,950 --> 01:36:31,760
references to mj12 into it and that was

2608
01:36:34,870 --> 01:36:32,960
the thing with the

2609
01:36:36,390 --> 01:36:34,880
bush documents you know if you if you

2610
01:36:37,510 --> 01:36:36,400
saw the movie truth

2611
01:36:38,790 --> 01:36:37,520
she's saying at the end you know

2612
01:36:40,550 --> 01:36:38,800
somebody would have had to understand

2613
01:36:42,390 --> 01:36:40,560
the lingo of the time the tenor of the

2614
01:36:43,669 --> 01:36:42,400
time but the thinking of the time how

2615
01:36:45,189 --> 01:36:43,679
these things were created the time and

2616
01:36:47,030 --> 01:36:45,199
i'm thinking no somebody just needed

2617
01:36:49,189 --> 01:36:47,040
three or four documents from the time

2618
01:36:51,270 --> 01:36:49,199
that they could retype and insert the

2619
01:36:53,030 --> 01:36:51,280
things they wanted inserted into it so

2620
01:36:54,470 --> 01:36:53,040
it looks like it's an authentic document

2621
01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:54,480
i think it's what's happened with mj12

2622
01:36:58,550 --> 01:36:56,320
they found authentic documents they've

2623
01:37:01,590 --> 01:36:58,560
retyped them so that there's a reference

2624
01:37:04,390 --> 01:37:01,600
to mj12 the aquarius telex which was the

2625
01:37:08,149 --> 01:37:04,400
first thing to mention mj12 is actually

2626
01:37:10,070 --> 01:37:08,159
a retype of an authentic osi document

2627
01:37:11,030 --> 01:37:10,080
and if you compare the original document

2628
01:37:12,790 --> 01:37:11,040
to the

2629
01:37:14,229 --> 01:37:12,800
the retyped version there's no reference

2630
01:37:15,910 --> 01:37:14,239
to mj12

2631
01:37:18,629 --> 01:37:15,920
bill moore told

2632
01:37:20,149 --> 01:37:18,639
dick hall that he'd retyped the memo

2633
01:37:22,550 --> 01:37:20,159
because the copy he had was so poor it

2634
01:37:24,070 --> 01:37:22,560
was very hard to read so he just retyped

2635
01:37:25,910 --> 01:37:24,080
it and put the proper headings on it

2636
01:37:27,030 --> 01:37:25,920
like that so he'd have a clear clean

2637
01:37:29,109 --> 01:37:27,040
document

2638
01:37:30,709 --> 01:37:29,119
but he couldn't produce the original

2639
01:37:31,910 --> 01:37:30,719
so you know we've got we've got those

2640
01:37:33,590 --> 01:37:31,920
sorts of things and i think that's how

2641
01:37:34,950 --> 01:37:33,600
that happens somebody re-types a

2642
01:37:36,390 --> 01:37:34,960
document

2643
01:37:39,430 --> 01:37:36,400
stan friedman says that the pointing

2644
01:37:40,790 --> 01:37:39,440
memo for example was uh inserted

2645
01:37:44,310 --> 01:37:40,800
carried it was

2646
01:37:45,990 --> 01:37:44,320
was faked and inserted into the

2647
01:37:47,350 --> 01:37:46,000
the place where it was found it wasn't

2648
01:37:48,550 --> 01:37:47,360
supposed to be there was inserted by

2649
01:37:50,709 --> 01:37:48,560
somebody else

2650
01:37:53,430 --> 01:37:50,719
as disinformation i'm thinking that it

2651
01:37:57,270 --> 01:37:53,440
was uh it was done by

2652
01:37:59,189 --> 01:37:57,280
bill moore and jamie shandera to provide

2653
01:38:00,470 --> 01:37:59,199
a provenance for one of the mj-12

2654
01:38:02,790 --> 01:38:00,480
documents well you see the national

2655
01:38:04,229 --> 01:38:02,800
archives has it but the national guard

2656
01:38:06,390 --> 01:38:04,239
archives only certifies this is a

2657
01:38:07,590 --> 01:38:06,400
document in our possession it was wasn't

2658
01:38:09,669 --> 01:38:07,600
found where it was supposed to be and

2659
01:38:12,070 --> 01:38:09,679
there was a lot of problems with the way

2660
01:38:13,750 --> 01:38:12,080
that things surfaced um stan says well

2661
01:38:15,910 --> 01:38:13,760
it's very hard to sneak a document into

2662
01:38:17,669 --> 01:38:15,920
the national archives and i say no

2663
01:38:19,750 --> 01:38:17,679
that's quite easy sneaking a document

2664
01:38:21,030 --> 01:38:19,760
out is much much more difficult because

2665
01:38:23,189 --> 01:38:21,040
they've had problems with that in the

2666
01:38:24,629 --> 01:38:23,199
past but sneaking stuff in i mean i

2667
01:38:26,149 --> 01:38:24,639
carried my

2668
01:38:27,669 --> 01:38:26,159
legal pad in there for example and i

2669
01:38:29,109 --> 01:38:27,679
could have had something inserted in the

2670
01:38:30,629 --> 01:38:29,119
pages somewhere

2671
01:38:31,669 --> 01:38:30,639
they just look and see it's a legal pad

2672
01:38:34,229 --> 01:38:31,679
that's nothing written on and we

2673
01:38:36,390 --> 01:38:34,239
continue on so uh you know there's no

2674
01:38:37,750 --> 01:38:36,400
problem sneaking something in so mj-12 i

2675
01:38:39,910 --> 01:38:37,760
think it's pretty well a dead issue and

2676
01:38:42,550 --> 01:38:39,920
should have been a dead issue 15 or 20

2677
01:38:45,590 --> 01:38:42,560
years ago and we should have moved on to

2678
01:38:46,470 --> 01:38:45,600
other aspects of ufo research rather

2679
01:38:48,149 --> 01:38:46,480
than

2680
01:38:51,430 --> 01:38:48,159
trying to validate this thing that's

2681
01:38:53,270 --> 01:38:51,440
clearly a hoax but even mj 12 becomes a

2682
01:38:54,870 --> 01:38:53,280
cultural myth

2683
01:38:57,030 --> 01:38:54,880
right it

2684
01:38:58,470 --> 01:38:57,040
should be reduced to a footnote and in

2685
01:39:00,550 --> 01:38:58,480
roswell in the 21st century and i've

2686
01:39:01,550 --> 01:39:00,560
done the same thing on my blog which is

2687
01:39:03,350 --> 01:39:01,560
uh

2688
01:39:04,550 --> 01:39:03,360
kevinrandall.blogspot.com which i i put

2689
01:39:06,390 --> 01:39:04,560
in there so people go there and look at

2690
01:39:08,550 --> 01:39:06,400
my blog but i've done a lot of stuff on

2691
01:39:10,390 --> 01:39:08,560
mj12 there as well talking about some of

2692
01:39:11,990 --> 01:39:10,400
these things the responses from

2693
01:39:13,189 --> 01:39:12,000
bob wood for example to some of the

2694
01:39:15,590 --> 01:39:13,199
things i've said

2695
01:39:18,149 --> 01:39:15,600
but you know all of this stuff is is out

2696
01:39:20,870 --> 01:39:18,159
there i've tried to when i wrote the

2697
01:39:22,790 --> 01:39:20,880
book i tried to footnote everything and

2698
01:39:24,310 --> 01:39:22,800
provide a source for the information so

2699
01:39:27,030 --> 01:39:24,320
if you don't want to believe me you can

2700
01:39:29,910 --> 01:39:27,040
go back to the source and see if i've

2701
01:39:31,350 --> 01:39:29,920
accurately reported on what they said or

2702
01:39:32,310 --> 01:39:31,360
what they did or what they thought at

2703
01:39:33,750 --> 01:39:32,320
the time

2704
01:39:35,750 --> 01:39:33,760
we've got some questions in the chat

2705
01:39:38,229 --> 01:39:35,760
room and sorry to to cut you off gene

2706
01:39:40,310 --> 01:39:38,239
but this is in relation to all of this

2707
01:39:42,870 --> 01:39:40,320
i'm wondering you know we've got marduk

2708
01:39:44,629 --> 01:39:42,880
who is saying why should we bother with

2709
01:39:46,709 --> 01:39:44,639
roswell seriously what's the point when

2710
01:39:49,270 --> 01:39:46,719
there's stuff happening right now that

2711
01:39:52,070 --> 01:39:49,280
we should be focusing our energy on

2712
01:39:54,550 --> 01:39:52,080
buy stuff do you mean stuff outside ufos

2713
01:39:56,629 --> 01:39:54,560
or ufo stuff i'm assuming that he's

2714
01:39:59,189 --> 01:39:56,639
referring to ufo stuff

2715
01:40:01,030 --> 01:39:59,199
i would say back in the 1990s the reason

2716
01:40:02,470 --> 01:40:01,040
you wanted to focus on roswell was

2717
01:40:05,910 --> 01:40:02,480
because it

2718
01:40:08,870 --> 01:40:05,920
could be the holy grail it could be what

2719
01:40:10,470 --> 01:40:08,880
proved alien visitation to us we've now

2720
01:40:12,390 --> 01:40:10,480
moved beyond that we realize that

2721
01:40:14,310 --> 01:40:12,400
roswell's not going to be the holy grail

2722
01:40:16,229 --> 01:40:14,320
it's not going to do it we need to

2723
01:40:18,390 --> 01:40:16,239
clarify we need to clean clean up the

2724
01:40:21,030 --> 01:40:18,400
mess that we made and i say we i'm

2725
01:40:22,950 --> 01:40:21,040
including myself in that of the roswell

2726
01:40:24,709 --> 01:40:22,960
investigation we need to clean that mess

2727
01:40:27,669 --> 01:40:24,719
up so people understand what happened

2728
01:40:30,870 --> 01:40:27,679
there or how we got to the point we are

2729
01:40:31,750 --> 01:40:30,880
now but as we move into

2730
01:40:35,109 --> 01:40:31,760
the

2731
01:40:37,030 --> 01:40:35,119
modern times as opposed to 1947

2732
01:40:39,109 --> 01:40:37,040
the problem is

2733
01:40:40,870 --> 01:40:39,119
we're we're overwhelmed with some of the

2734
01:40:43,030 --> 01:40:40,880
information there's an awful lot of fake

2735
01:40:45,830 --> 01:40:43,040
stuff going on you know if you look at

2736
01:40:48,070 --> 01:40:45,840
the internet there's just literally

2737
01:40:52,229 --> 01:40:48,080
hundreds of fake ufo

2738
01:40:54,390 --> 01:40:52,239
videos on there anybody with a

2739
01:40:56,709 --> 01:40:54,400
a a camera and a computer can make a

2740
01:40:58,550 --> 01:40:56,719
just incredible

2741
01:41:00,310 --> 01:40:58,560
looking video in today's world that's

2742
01:41:02,470 --> 01:41:00,320
very hard to disprove

2743
01:41:04,390 --> 01:41:02,480
um and the sightings aren't nearly as

2744
01:41:06,550 --> 01:41:04,400
robust as they used to be if you look

2745
01:41:09,590 --> 01:41:06,560
back at level land texas for example in

2746
01:41:10,950 --> 01:41:09,600
1957 you've got the craft interacting

2747
01:41:12,470 --> 01:41:10,960
with the environment you've got

2748
01:41:15,270 --> 01:41:12,480
installing car engines you've got

2749
01:41:17,510 --> 01:41:15,280
multiple witnesses at multiple locations

2750
01:41:19,830 --> 01:41:17,520
reporting the same thing going on

2751
01:41:21,750 --> 01:41:19,840
there's a possibility of a landing trace

2752
01:41:24,149 --> 01:41:21,760
you've got all of the elements you would

2753
01:41:26,070 --> 01:41:24,159
need again to prove a

2754
01:41:27,910 --> 01:41:26,080
alien visitation

2755
01:41:30,470 --> 01:41:27,920
we don't seem to be getting those sorts

2756
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:30,480
of cases anymore that's a great point

2757
01:41:34,629 --> 01:41:32,719
and it has changed the phenomena has

2758
01:41:36,310 --> 01:41:34,639
changed and we're not seeing that nuts

2759
01:41:38,629 --> 01:41:36,320
and bolts trace evidence like you're

2760
01:41:40,390 --> 01:41:38,639
talking about or the craft but what are

2761
01:41:42,229 --> 01:41:40,400
your thoughts on some of the anomalous

2762
01:41:43,669 --> 01:41:42,239
light phenomenon because to me this is

2763
01:41:45,590 --> 01:41:43,679
where we really need to direct our

2764
01:41:48,790 --> 01:41:45,600
attention

2765
01:41:51,030 --> 01:41:48,800
my phd dissertation was on how belief

2766
01:41:53,430 --> 01:41:51,040
structure uh influences the

2767
01:41:55,830 --> 01:41:53,440
identification of ambiguous stimuli

2768
01:41:57,910 --> 01:41:55,840
which be lights in the sky basically and

2769
01:41:59,510 --> 01:41:57,920
if you had a belief in alien visitation

2770
01:42:01,830 --> 01:41:59,520
then you may have interpreted them as

2771
01:42:03,030 --> 01:42:01,840
alien spacecraft if you believed in

2772
01:42:06,229 --> 01:42:03,040
angels

2773
01:42:08,629 --> 01:42:06,239
you had a real interest in the

2774
01:42:10,790 --> 01:42:08,639
paranormal you might interpret the the

2775
01:42:12,149 --> 01:42:10,800
lights as ghosts it all depends on how

2776
01:42:15,270 --> 01:42:12,159
you interpret

2777
01:42:16,709 --> 01:42:15,280
that information there's some suggest i

2778
01:42:19,109 --> 01:42:16,719
think we learned something about

2779
01:42:21,750 --> 01:42:19,119
earthquake lights because of that the

2780
01:42:24,629 --> 01:42:21,760
phenomena based on the the um stress

2781
01:42:27,430 --> 01:42:24,639
fractures of piezoelectronic uh crystals

2782
01:42:29,669 --> 01:42:27,440
in the ears earth's crust causing lights

2783
01:42:30,870 --> 01:42:29,679
to to manifest themselves we've learned

2784
01:42:32,709 --> 01:42:30,880
something about

2785
01:42:34,950 --> 01:42:32,719
the ionization of the atmosphere and how

2786
01:42:37,510 --> 01:42:34,960
those things might become visible so

2787
01:42:39,350 --> 01:42:37,520
we're learning things that take us

2788
01:42:40,830 --> 01:42:39,360
further in science

2789
01:42:42,950 --> 01:42:40,840
but not necessarily toward the

2790
01:42:44,790 --> 01:42:42,960
extraterrestrial let me ask you a fast

2791
01:42:47,109 --> 01:42:44,800
question here before we move into some

2792
01:42:48,390 --> 01:42:47,119
other topics and eric i guess we're

2793
01:42:50,870 --> 01:42:48,400
going to start i'll let you ask your

2794
01:42:52,629 --> 01:42:50,880
question in a second very quickly here

2795
01:42:53,750 --> 01:42:52,639
based on the fact that we know a lot

2796
01:42:56,950 --> 01:42:53,760
more about

2797
01:42:59,990 --> 01:42:56,960
things that can cause bogus ufos

2798
01:43:02,070 --> 01:43:00,000
or ifos as opposed to ufos

2799
01:43:03,910 --> 01:43:02,080
does that mean that maybe we should look

2800
01:43:04,950 --> 01:43:03,920
more into some of these classic cases

2801
01:43:06,709 --> 01:43:04,960
and maybe

2802
01:43:08,310 --> 01:43:06,719
more of them will be explained

2803
01:43:10,390 --> 01:43:08,320
accordingly

2804
01:43:11,830 --> 01:43:10,400
absolutely and the best example i have

2805
01:43:13,109 --> 01:43:11,840
is the child's wooded siding if you

2806
01:43:14,709 --> 01:43:13,119
remember these were the two airline

2807
01:43:16,709 --> 01:43:14,719
pilots that saw a cigar-shaped craft

2808
01:43:18,149 --> 01:43:16,719
with square windows buzzed by their

2809
01:43:20,950 --> 01:43:18,159
their airliner

2810
01:43:22,790 --> 01:43:20,960
in 1948 i think it was and this is this

2811
01:43:26,070 --> 01:43:22,800
is was an important case for the airport

2812
01:43:27,910 --> 01:43:26,080
air force because these guys were uh

2813
01:43:30,070 --> 01:43:27,920
experienced pilots

2814
01:43:32,310 --> 01:43:30,080
now fast forward to

2815
01:43:34,390 --> 01:43:32,320
march of 1968 and we've got the re-entry

2816
01:43:36,550 --> 01:43:34,400
of the zon 4 i think it was soviet

2817
01:43:38,070 --> 01:43:36,560
spacecraft and as it broke up in the

2818
01:43:39,669 --> 01:43:38,080
atmosphere

2819
01:43:41,350 --> 01:43:39,679
a number of people thought they saw

2820
01:43:43,430 --> 01:43:41,360
cigar-shaped craft with square windows

2821
01:43:45,430 --> 01:43:43,440
on it we know what the

2822
01:43:47,270 --> 01:43:45,440
stimuli was it was the breakup of this

2823
01:43:48,470 --> 01:43:47,280
spacecraft most of the people saw it

2824
01:43:50,470 --> 01:43:48,480
realize what it was but some of the

2825
01:43:52,310 --> 01:43:50,480
people drew illustrations that are

2826
01:43:54,550 --> 01:43:52,320
reminiscent of what charles would have

2827
01:43:56,550 --> 01:43:54,560
drew in in the 1940s

2828
01:43:58,470 --> 01:43:56,560
fast forward even further now we have

2829
01:44:00,709 --> 01:43:58,480
video cameras everywhere

2830
01:44:02,950 --> 01:44:00,719
and you watch um

2831
01:44:04,470 --> 01:44:02,960
the re-entry and not the re-entry but

2832
01:44:06,870 --> 01:44:04,480
meteor falls

2833
01:44:09,030 --> 01:44:06,880
and you can see the things breaking up

2834
01:44:10,629 --> 01:44:09,040
and what you what you see on there and

2835
01:44:12,550 --> 01:44:10,639
and i've done this on my blog i've

2836
01:44:15,510 --> 01:44:12,560
actually shown some of the photographs

2837
01:44:17,510 --> 01:44:15,520
taken from these from these videos of of

2838
01:44:19,590 --> 01:44:17,520
uh meteors falling out and you see a

2839
01:44:21,990 --> 01:44:19,600
bright light at the front and then you

2840
01:44:24,390 --> 01:44:22,000
see what looks like windows and it's the

2841
01:44:26,390 --> 01:44:24,400
meteor breaking up and and streaming out

2842
01:44:28,149 --> 01:44:26,400
as it as it uh comes apart in the

2843
01:44:30,470 --> 01:44:28,159
atmosphere so we look at some of the

2844
01:44:32,790 --> 01:44:30,480
classic cases like charles wooden and we

2845
01:44:34,950 --> 01:44:32,800
can say i think with great confidence

2846
01:44:37,030 --> 01:44:34,960
and i'm i'm alone on this one i think uh

2847
01:44:39,910 --> 01:44:37,040
bumper virtually on this in most of the

2848
01:44:42,229 --> 01:44:39,920
ufo community i think uh charles wooden

2849
01:44:44,709 --> 01:44:42,239
saw meteor break up it was a bolide it

2850
01:44:45,669 --> 01:44:44,719
looked based on their perspective like

2851
01:44:48,550 --> 01:44:45,679
it was

2852
01:44:49,830 --> 01:44:48,560
traveling um horizontally or even

2853
01:44:51,669 --> 01:44:49,840
climbing a little bit but i think that

2854
01:44:53,750 --> 01:44:51,679
had to do with the optical illusion of

2855
01:44:55,830 --> 01:44:53,760
the clouds of where they were

2856
01:44:58,070 --> 01:44:55,840
at the time but i think we can look at

2857
01:45:00,870 --> 01:44:58,080
some of that stuff and you say this

2858
01:45:02,709 --> 01:45:00,880
probably is a meteor and if you look at

2859
01:45:04,790 --> 01:45:02,719
some of the cases you you see well i saw

2860
01:45:07,109 --> 01:45:04,800
it for a second or two and if you've

2861
01:45:10,470 --> 01:45:07,119
only got a brief look at something like

2862
01:45:12,629 --> 01:45:10,480
that falling the mind generates the

2863
01:45:14,870 --> 01:45:12,639
object uh you say well it looks like an

2864
01:45:16,790 --> 01:45:14,880
airliner therefore you know that's what

2865
01:45:18,310 --> 01:45:16,800
you think it is it's an airliner coming

2866
01:45:21,189 --> 01:45:18,320
down so you've got all these kind of

2867
01:45:23,189 --> 01:45:21,199
problems let's go into more of this and

2868
01:45:25,669 --> 01:45:23,199
return to some more of the legends of

2869
01:45:27,990 --> 01:45:25,679
roswell that turn out not to be true

2870
01:45:30,229 --> 01:45:28,000
with kevin randle erica luke's gene

2871
01:45:39,109 --> 01:45:30,239
steinberg goggs makai you're in the

2872
01:45:43,550 --> 01:45:42,629
you are listening to gcn

2873
01:45:45,210 --> 01:45:43,560
visit

2874
01:45:47,669 --> 01:45:45,220
gcnlive.com today

2875
01:45:50,070 --> 01:45:47,679
[Music]

2876
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2877
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2878
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2879
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2880
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2881
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2882
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2883
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2884
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2885
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2886
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2887
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2888
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2890
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2891
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2896
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2897
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[Applause]

2927
01:48:03,510 --> 01:47:59,830
welcome back to the paracast the gold

2928
01:48:04,709 --> 01:48:03,520
standard of paranormal radio

2929
01:48:08,060 --> 01:48:04,719
and now

2930
01:48:11,750 --> 01:48:08,070
here's jane steinberg

2931
01:48:16,629 --> 01:48:13,910
before we go on our final

2932
01:48:18,629 --> 01:48:16,639
segments of the show with kevin randle i

2933
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:18,639
want to tell you about the other radio

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2936
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2937
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2938
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2939
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2942
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2943
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2945
01:48:48,470 --> 01:48:46,960
quickly kevin because we have listener

2946
01:48:50,229 --> 01:48:48,480
questions and everybody's championing

2947
01:48:52,310 --> 01:48:50,239
the bit for a comment let me ask you one

2948
01:48:55,030 --> 01:48:52,320
thing to move on from there

2949
01:48:56,870 --> 01:48:55,040
all right re-identifying old ufos is one

2950
01:48:59,590 --> 01:48:56,880
thing that could be another show

2951
01:49:01,109 --> 01:48:59,600
but back to roswell one of the linchpins

2952
01:49:03,109 --> 01:49:01,119
of roswell

2953
01:49:05,270 --> 01:49:03,119
alien bodies

2954
01:49:06,790 --> 01:49:05,280
how did that begin to unravel

2955
01:49:08,950 --> 01:49:06,800
the problem is most of the people that

2956
01:49:10,310 --> 01:49:08,960
we talked to who said they saw alien

2957
01:49:12,229 --> 01:49:10,320
bodies were turning out not to be

2958
01:49:14,709 --> 01:49:12,239
telling us the truth uh some of the

2959
01:49:17,270 --> 01:49:14,719
information we had was second hand i

2960
01:49:18,070 --> 01:49:17,280
think of melvin brown he apparently told

2961
01:49:23,270 --> 01:49:18,080
his

2962
01:49:25,590 --> 01:49:23,280
having seen alien bodies in 1947

2963
01:49:27,189 --> 01:49:25,600
but that second-hand testimony and given

2964
01:49:29,830 --> 01:49:27,199
what we've learned about all of this in

2965
01:49:31,109 --> 01:49:29,840
the last decade and a half i'm not

2966
01:49:32,870 --> 01:49:31,119
really thrilled with second-hand

2967
01:49:35,910 --> 01:49:32,880
testimony anymore

2968
01:49:38,149 --> 01:49:35,920
but if we look at it we had glenn dennis

2969
01:49:40,070 --> 01:49:38,159
the mortician talking about what his

2970
01:49:41,830 --> 01:49:40,080
nurse pal had told him

2971
01:49:43,510 --> 01:49:41,840
about alien bodies but again it's

2972
01:49:45,189 --> 01:49:43,520
secondhand information and it turns out

2973
01:49:47,189 --> 01:49:45,199
glenn dennis

2974
01:49:48,870 --> 01:49:47,199
probably wasn't being as candid with us

2975
01:49:50,470 --> 01:49:48,880
as he could have been in other words

2976
01:49:52,629 --> 01:49:50,480
that we we could never find the nurse he

2977
01:49:54,629 --> 01:49:52,639
gave us a name for the nurse

2978
01:49:57,430 --> 01:49:54,639
we spent an awful lot of time looking

2979
01:49:59,750 --> 01:49:57,440
for vic golubek said that he had

2980
01:50:02,070 --> 01:49:59,760
identified like 25 nurses who'd been in

2981
01:50:04,870 --> 01:50:02,080
roswell at the air base in the civilian

2982
01:50:06,470 --> 01:50:04,880
hospitals uh at the time frame none of

2983
01:50:08,070 --> 01:50:06,480
them were named this naomi self which is

2984
01:50:09,590 --> 01:50:08,080
the name that glenn dennis gave us so we

2985
01:50:11,350 --> 01:50:09,600
go to glen dennis and say we can't find

2986
01:50:13,669 --> 01:50:11,360
the nurse there's never been a nurse in

2987
01:50:14,870 --> 01:50:13,679
the military named naomi self and he

2988
01:50:16,870 --> 01:50:14,880
said well

2989
01:50:17,990 --> 01:50:16,880
i made up the name i told you guys i

2990
01:50:19,910 --> 01:50:18,000
wasn't going to give you the name i told

2991
01:50:21,990 --> 01:50:19,920
you it would be a fake name nah he never

2992
01:50:23,510 --> 01:50:22,000
said that to us at all he said to me in

2993
01:50:24,709 --> 01:50:23,520
confidence i'm going to tell you the

2994
01:50:26,709 --> 01:50:24,719
name of the nurse just don't tell

2995
01:50:28,470 --> 01:50:26,719
anybody and then he proceeded to tell

2996
01:50:30,390 --> 01:50:28,480
everybody else himself

2997
01:50:31,910 --> 01:50:30,400
and and one day he was berating me

2998
01:50:33,270 --> 01:50:31,920
because we had not found his nurse he

2999
01:50:34,629 --> 01:50:33,280
said how come you can't find the nurse

3000
01:50:36,550 --> 01:50:34,639
and i said well glenn you've got to

3001
01:50:38,310 --> 01:50:36,560
understand that there are people in the

3002
01:50:40,149 --> 01:50:38,320
country that have the same name we found

3003
01:50:42,390 --> 01:50:40,159
four women named naomi self none of them

3004
01:50:45,109 --> 01:50:42,400
are your nurse i said i was looking for

3005
01:50:48,070 --> 01:50:45,119
a guy named robert slusher who had been

3006
01:50:50,310 --> 01:50:48,080
a crew member at roswell in 1947. i just

3007
01:50:52,709 --> 01:50:50,320
talked to a guy today when i was talking

3008
01:50:55,189 --> 01:50:52,719
to glenn named robert flusher who'd been

3009
01:50:57,189 --> 01:50:55,199
a major in the army air forces back in

3010
01:50:59,030 --> 01:50:57,199
the world war ii he's not the right guy

3011
01:51:01,510 --> 01:50:59,040
and glendenna says oh i know robert

3012
01:51:03,030 --> 01:51:01,520
slusher he lives over in las cruces my

3013
01:51:04,470 --> 01:51:03,040
god that was the right guy

3014
01:51:06,870 --> 01:51:04,480
but the point is glenn dennis is

3015
01:51:08,390 --> 01:51:06,880
berating us for not finding his nurse

3016
01:51:10,550 --> 01:51:08,400
and now he's saying well i never gave

3017
01:51:12,470 --> 01:51:10,560
you the right name now that's how it

3018
01:51:15,189 --> 01:51:12,480
came apart there's a couple people there

3019
01:51:16,470 --> 01:51:15,199
was a thomas gonzalez who never really

3020
01:51:18,070 --> 01:51:16,480
described it but he would make

3021
01:51:20,390 --> 01:51:18,080
whittlings carvings of this i talked to

3022
01:51:21,990 --> 01:51:20,400
the guy briefly a number of years ago i

3023
01:51:23,990 --> 01:51:22,000
have no reason to just believe what he

3024
01:51:26,149 --> 01:51:24,000
said because here's a guy who seemed to

3025
01:51:27,830 --> 01:51:26,159
be very credible in what he was saying

3026
01:51:30,310 --> 01:51:27,840
but we didn't get a lot of information

3027
01:51:31,590 --> 01:51:30,320
out of him but most of the stories of

3028
01:51:34,550 --> 01:51:31,600
seeing the bodies firsthand have

3029
01:51:35,830 --> 01:51:34,560
collapsed or they're second hand at best

3030
01:51:37,830 --> 01:51:35,840
some of them are third hand and then

3031
01:51:40,070 --> 01:51:37,840
once you get to a third hand testimony

3032
01:51:41,589 --> 01:51:40,080
it's just practically useless so we've

3033
01:51:43,189 --> 01:51:41,599
got a question in the in the chat room

3034
01:51:46,310 --> 01:51:43,199
kevin and i just wanted to ask you this

3035
01:51:49,830 --> 01:51:46,320
i mean is this your last book on roswell

3036
01:51:51,270 --> 01:51:49,840
yes okay i cannot see doing anything

3037
01:51:53,350 --> 01:51:51,280
actually it's a different question that

3038
01:51:54,709 --> 01:51:53,360
was posed to me in in relation to my

3039
01:51:57,430 --> 01:51:54,719
radio show

3040
01:51:59,669 --> 01:51:57,440
about this and and then the question was

3041
01:52:01,830 --> 01:51:59,679
where do we go from here on roswell

3042
01:52:03,910 --> 01:52:01,840
and thinking about that i don't have an

3043
01:52:05,430 --> 01:52:03,920
answer for that i don't know where we go

3044
01:52:06,870 --> 01:52:05,440
the the witnesses

3045
01:52:08,870 --> 01:52:06,880
the people who would have been alive at

3046
01:52:10,149 --> 01:52:08,880
the time in 1947 they could possibly

3047
01:52:12,470 --> 01:52:10,159
tell us something

3048
01:52:14,470 --> 01:52:12,480
have all apparently died we have no

3049
01:52:16,709 --> 01:52:14,480
documentation we do not know what

3050
01:52:18,470 --> 01:52:16,719
government agencies to foia and even if

3051
01:52:20,310 --> 01:52:18,480
we did they'd say we have no documents

3052
01:52:22,470 --> 01:52:20,320
responsive to your request

3053
01:52:24,709 --> 01:52:22,480
even if it's highly classified i don't

3054
01:52:26,790 --> 01:52:24,719
know where you go from here i looked at

3055
01:52:28,470 --> 01:52:26,800
all the information that we had i tried

3056
01:52:31,189 --> 01:52:28,480
to look at everything i tried to look at

3057
01:52:33,990 --> 01:52:31,199
a dispassionate light i wanted to tell

3058
01:52:36,229 --> 01:52:34,000
the story as best we could do it in the

3059
01:52:37,669 --> 01:52:36,239
21st century and what we're left with

3060
01:52:38,709 --> 01:52:37,679
are pretty much

3061
01:52:40,470 --> 01:52:38,719
uh

3062
01:52:41,990 --> 01:52:40,480
some anecdotal testimonies that really

3063
01:52:43,270 --> 01:52:42,000
don't take us very far

3064
01:52:45,350 --> 01:52:43,280
so where are you going to go from here

3065
01:52:47,589 --> 01:52:45,360
what are you going to focus on next i

3066
01:52:49,990 --> 01:52:47,599
have actually been doing some stuff

3067
01:52:51,510 --> 01:52:50,000
again on an outgrowth of a question on

3068
01:52:53,270 --> 01:52:51,520
my radio program

3069
01:52:55,910 --> 01:52:53,280
on on socorro

3070
01:52:57,189 --> 01:52:55,920
i had talked to ben moss and tony

3071
01:52:58,790 --> 01:52:57,199
angiola

3072
01:53:00,310 --> 01:52:58,800
about the socorro case and they said a

3073
01:53:02,229 --> 01:53:00,320
couple of things

3074
01:53:05,149 --> 01:53:02,239
on my radio program and you can you can

3075
01:53:07,550 --> 01:53:05,159
access that by going to what is it the

3076
01:53:09,270 --> 01:53:07,560
xzbn.net the

3077
01:53:11,430 --> 01:53:09,280
xzonebroadcastnetwork.net and you can

3078
01:53:13,589 --> 01:53:11,440
find a log of my radio programs and you

3079
01:53:14,870 --> 01:53:13,599
look for the one with with ben and tony

3080
01:53:16,229 --> 01:53:14,880
on it and we can listen to this

3081
01:53:18,310 --> 01:53:16,239
discussion there and it led to some

3082
01:53:19,910 --> 01:53:18,320
other other people as well but they said

3083
01:53:22,310 --> 01:53:19,920
a couple things that that surprised me

3084
01:53:23,430 --> 01:53:22,320
one is that there was uh corroborative

3085
01:53:25,270 --> 01:53:23,440
witnesses

3086
01:53:27,270 --> 01:53:25,280
and the other thing was that the the

3087
01:53:29,270 --> 01:53:27,280
symbol that we'd all seen for so many

3088
01:53:30,950 --> 01:53:29,280
years was the wrong symbol so i began

3089
01:53:33,189 --> 01:53:30,960
some research into that and that led me

3090
01:53:35,270 --> 01:53:33,199
to talk to rob mercer who had gotten a

3091
01:53:36,070 --> 01:53:35,280
whole bunch of blue book files from

3092
01:53:39,189 --> 01:53:36,080
um

3093
01:53:41,189 --> 01:53:39,199
a guy named carmen carmon

3094
01:53:43,109 --> 01:53:41,199
murano who had been a member of the

3095
01:53:45,350 --> 01:53:43,119
project blue book staff as they closed

3096
01:53:46,950 --> 01:53:45,360
down project blue book and it all came

3097
01:53:50,070 --> 01:53:46,960
out uh you know he had some

3098
01:53:51,510 --> 01:53:50,080
documentation there and so i was i i

3099
01:53:53,830 --> 01:53:51,520
just kept getting deeper and deeper into

3100
01:53:55,910 --> 01:53:53,840
the story so i've been working on

3101
01:53:57,510 --> 01:53:55,920
getting some stuff on the socorro case

3102
01:53:59,109 --> 01:53:57,520
i'd asked ben and tony if they'd looked

3103
01:54:00,790 --> 01:53:59,119
at the police logs to see if the names

3104
01:54:02,310 --> 01:54:00,800
of the people who had seen the object

3105
01:54:04,709 --> 01:54:02,320
were in there and they said no and i

3106
01:54:07,109 --> 01:54:04,719
thought well this is useless information

3107
01:54:10,390 --> 01:54:07,119
and then i found a report from richard

3108
01:54:12,950 --> 01:54:10,400
holder holder who had um investigated

3109
01:54:14,790 --> 01:54:12,960
the case for the military on the night

3110
01:54:15,830 --> 01:54:14,800
it had happened and he talked to the

3111
01:54:17,270 --> 01:54:15,840
police dispatcher and the police

3112
01:54:19,109 --> 01:54:17,280
dispatcher tells him well three people

3113
01:54:20,550 --> 01:54:19,119
called in and saw the object in the sky

3114
01:54:22,310 --> 01:54:20,560
but we didn't write any of this down so

3115
01:54:24,149 --> 01:54:22,320
what that does was verify that people

3116
01:54:27,189 --> 01:54:24,159
actually called the police department on

3117
01:54:29,350 --> 01:54:27,199
that date about this so we we were able

3118
01:54:31,589 --> 01:54:29,360
to you know verify some of that stuff so

3119
01:54:33,589 --> 01:54:31,599
i've been looking into the socorro case

3120
01:54:35,430 --> 01:54:33,599
more in depth into the squirrel case

3121
01:54:37,030 --> 01:54:35,440
that's great you know ben and tony

3122
01:54:38,950 --> 01:54:37,040
they're friends of mine and they've done

3123
01:54:41,189 --> 01:54:38,960
an excellent job with ray and i know

3124
01:54:43,030 --> 01:54:41,199
chris o'brien was mentioning on the last

3125
01:54:45,430 --> 01:54:43,040
week's show how much he

3126
01:54:48,470 --> 01:54:45,440
values rey and had worked with him and

3127
01:54:50,229 --> 01:54:48,480
he sounds like an absolutely brilliant

3128
01:54:52,070 --> 01:54:50,239
person and i think there's going to be

3129
01:54:54,709 --> 01:54:52,080
some good stuff coming from this have

3130
01:54:57,189 --> 01:54:54,719
you reached out to ray stanford

3131
01:54:59,430 --> 01:54:57,199
i had bray stanford on my program

3132
01:55:01,830 --> 01:54:59,440
so i've talked i had him on the program

3133
01:55:03,990 --> 01:55:01,840
i had rob mercer on the program

3134
01:55:06,629 --> 01:55:04,000
and they all talked about this and then

3135
01:55:08,149 --> 01:55:06,639
i was able to get carmen murano on the

3136
01:55:09,669 --> 01:55:08,159
program as well so you know i've done a

3137
01:55:11,669 --> 01:55:09,679
number of programs that relate to the

3138
01:55:14,390 --> 01:55:11,679
socorro case from the perspective of

3139
01:55:17,030 --> 01:55:14,400
what ben moss and tony angelo have done

3140
01:55:19,189 --> 01:55:17,040
for what ray stanford has done what rob

3141
01:55:21,189 --> 01:55:19,199
mercer learned and and so you know all

3142
01:55:23,109 --> 01:55:21,199
of that is you know you know i did like

3143
01:55:25,510 --> 01:55:23,119
four programs which in essence is a

3144
01:55:26,629 --> 01:55:25,520
socorro ufo case which again is like 50

3145
01:55:29,669 --> 01:55:26,639
years old

3146
01:55:31,510 --> 01:55:29,679
uh because it's 1964. yeah in the same

3147
01:55:33,430 --> 01:55:31,520
boat that a lot of people

3148
01:55:35,510 --> 01:55:33,440
who were involved in that case are no

3149
01:55:38,550 --> 01:55:35,520
longer available

3150
01:55:40,229 --> 01:55:38,560
but we've got much better documentation

3151
01:55:41,990 --> 01:55:40,239
for that case than we did for roswell

3152
01:55:43,669 --> 01:55:42,000
because the air force moved in so

3153
01:55:45,589 --> 01:55:43,679
quickly in roswell and took away

3154
01:55:48,310 --> 01:55:45,599
everything and you can go to the project

3155
01:55:50,229 --> 01:55:48,320
blue book file on it you've got the uh

3156
01:55:53,430 --> 01:55:50,239
uh subsequent information that was

3157
01:55:55,270 --> 01:55:53,440
provided by uh carmen morano about what

3158
01:55:56,709 --> 01:55:55,280
went on in socorro

3159
01:55:59,189 --> 01:55:56,719
and we've got one of the guys who was

3160
01:56:00,470 --> 01:55:59,199
there in 1964 investigating in ray

3161
01:56:02,470 --> 01:56:00,480
stanford

3162
01:56:04,550 --> 01:56:02,480
that we can still talk to so we've got

3163
01:56:06,950 --> 01:56:04,560
all of that kind of thing going on you

3164
01:56:09,030 --> 01:56:06,960
can go back to the originals not four

3165
01:56:11,750 --> 01:56:09,040
people removed what about

3166
01:56:14,310 --> 01:56:11,760
the story about possible beings seen in

3167
01:56:15,750 --> 01:56:14,320
connection with the craft at sicarro

3168
01:56:17,669 --> 01:56:15,760
there's no question there there are

3169
01:56:20,790 --> 01:56:17,679
beings and you look at the documentation

3170
01:56:23,030 --> 01:56:20,800
that that developed out of that time um

3171
01:56:25,270 --> 01:56:23,040
it's there i think it was arthur burns

3172
01:56:26,950 --> 01:56:25,280
who was the fbi guy who said to them

3173
01:56:29,589 --> 01:56:26,960
don't say i was here

3174
01:56:32,070 --> 01:56:29,599
you know it's documented he was there he

3175
01:56:34,149 --> 01:56:32,080
suggested to lani zamora that he not

3176
01:56:35,830 --> 01:56:34,159
mentioned the beings because that would

3177
01:56:37,350 --> 01:56:35,840
undermine his credibility people would

3178
01:56:39,510 --> 01:56:37,360
laugh at him for that i think that there

3179
01:56:40,870 --> 01:56:39,520
was something to be said for that

3180
01:56:43,109 --> 01:56:40,880
but you go back to the original

3181
01:56:44,470 --> 01:56:43,119
documentation and the original stuff

3182
01:56:47,109 --> 01:56:44,480
going on

3183
01:56:49,910 --> 01:56:47,119
i think hynek is kind of responsible for

3184
01:56:52,070 --> 01:56:49,920
the idea that it was just

3185
01:56:54,229 --> 01:56:52,080
coveralls white coveralls

3186
01:56:56,790 --> 01:56:54,239
but there are statements by lonnie

3187
01:56:58,870 --> 01:56:56,800
zamora in the project blue book files

3188
01:57:01,189 --> 01:56:58,880
that suggest that there were beings

3189
01:57:03,430 --> 01:57:01,199
creatures aliens there

3190
01:57:04,870 --> 01:57:03,440
he said the same thing to coral lorenzen

3191
01:57:07,109 --> 01:57:04,880
she interviewed him

3192
01:57:09,350 --> 01:57:07,119
within 48 hours of the of the sighting

3193
01:57:12,310 --> 01:57:09,360
she and jim lorenzen were there in

3194
01:57:15,350 --> 01:57:12,320
in socorro and it's in the april

3195
01:57:18,790 --> 01:57:15,360
bulletin in may i think 1964 their may

3196
01:57:21,350 --> 01:57:18,800
of 1964 issue and she asked zamora about

3197
01:57:22,950 --> 01:57:21,360
that and he kind of hesitated and she

3198
01:57:25,350 --> 01:57:22,960
said it's already out in the public and

3199
01:57:27,750 --> 01:57:25,360
so he described a little bit more about

3200
01:57:29,830 --> 01:57:27,760
what he had seen the beings see in

3201
01:57:32,629 --> 01:57:29,840
connection with sicario

3202
01:57:35,430 --> 01:57:32,639
sighting with kevin randle gene

3203
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:35,440
steinberg's makai and erica lukes you're

3204
01:57:49,589 --> 01:57:47,589
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3205
01:57:52,149 --> 01:57:49,599
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3207
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3217
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3218
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3219
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3220
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3221
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3225
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3226
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3227
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3228
01:58:49,990 --> 01:58:48,239
slash gene think about this your

3229
01:58:51,430 --> 01:58:50,000
community's aging water infrastructure

3230
01:58:53,910 --> 01:58:51,440
systems are very likely to be

3231
01:58:55,750 --> 01:58:53,920
contaminated with heavy metals like lead

3232
01:58:57,350 --> 01:58:55,760
disinfection chemicals like ammonia

3233
01:58:59,430 --> 01:58:57,360
chlorine and chloramines and

3234
01:59:01,270 --> 01:58:59,440
pharmaceuticals like statins pain meds

3235
01:59:02,790 --> 01:59:01,280
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3236
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3239
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3240
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3241
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3242
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3243
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3244
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3245
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3246
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3248
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3249
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3250
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3251
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3252
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3253
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3254
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3255
01:59:48,950 --> 01:59:44,639
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3256
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3257
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stained from coffee tea or smoking power

3258
01:59:56,709 --> 01:59:54,880
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3259
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3260
02:00:00,310 --> 01:59:58,800
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3261
02:00:01,750 --> 02:00:00,320
strips or trays that you have to leave

3262
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in your mouth for an hour just swab your

3263
02:00:07,990 --> 02:00:03,440
teeth for five minutes and you're done

3264
02:00:11,270 --> 02:00:09,589
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3265
02:00:14,270 --> 02:00:11,280
friends talking about how great you look

3266
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:18,790
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3267
02:00:26,470 --> 02:00:22,310
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3268
02:00:29,030 --> 02:00:26,480
that's just my mold collection oh gross

3269
02:00:31,589 --> 02:00:29,040
and what is that what that bacteria

3270
02:00:34,149 --> 02:00:31,599
colony right there yeah cool huh

3271
02:00:35,990 --> 02:00:34,159
okay cpap users admit it you're not

3272
02:00:38,229 --> 02:00:36,000
always as careful about cleaning your

3273
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3274
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3276
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3279
02:00:53,750 --> 02:00:50,960
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3280
02:00:55,669 --> 02:00:53,760
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3281
02:00:57,750 --> 02:00:55,679
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3284
02:01:05,350 --> 02:01:02,960
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3285
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3286
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3287
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3288
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3289
02:01:18,149 --> 02:01:13,719
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3290
02:01:22,149 --> 02:01:20,470
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3291
02:01:24,149 --> 02:01:22,159
you know that premature birth is the

3292
02:01:25,750 --> 02:01:24,159
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3293
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02:01:30,229 --> 02:01:27,760
working with the march of dimes to fight

3295
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to end premature birth and birth defects

3296
02:01:34,149 --> 02:01:32,320
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02:01:37,030 --> 02:01:34,159
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3299
02:01:40,950 --> 02:01:38,960
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3300
02:01:44,149 --> 02:01:40,960
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3301
02:01:46,470 --> 02:01:44,159
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3302
02:01:50,870 --> 02:01:46,480
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3303
02:01:55,589 --> 02:01:53,189
we'd like to hear from you if you have a

3304
02:01:59,189 --> 02:01:55,599
comment or question about the paracast

3305
02:02:02,390 --> 02:01:59,199
send it to news at theparacast.com

3306
02:02:04,229 --> 02:02:02,400
that's news at the paracast.com

3307
02:02:06,709 --> 02:02:04,239
and don't forget to visit our famous

3308
02:02:09,550 --> 02:02:06,719
paracast community forums at

3309
02:02:11,030 --> 02:02:09,560
forum.theparacast.com

3310
02:02:13,830 --> 02:02:11,040
[Music]

3311
02:02:15,830 --> 02:02:13,840
okay alien beings looking at all the

3312
02:02:17,990 --> 02:02:15,840
evidence that we've seen so far in the

3313
02:02:20,229 --> 02:02:18,000
blue book records and what lonnie zamora

3314
02:02:21,830 --> 02:02:20,239
said and as we said before it's nice to

3315
02:02:23,589 --> 02:02:21,840
have just a few

3316
02:02:25,750 --> 02:02:23,599
focused witnesses

3317
02:02:28,310 --> 02:02:25,760
or people we can talk to

3318
02:02:30,790 --> 02:02:28,320
or could have talked to at one time as

3319
02:02:32,390 --> 02:02:30,800
opposed to the mess of roswell what do

3320
02:02:34,390 --> 02:02:32,400
we know about these being seen in

3321
02:02:36,550 --> 02:02:34,400
connection with the craft there were two

3322
02:02:39,350 --> 02:02:36,560
of them they were short they were

3323
02:02:41,109 --> 02:02:39,360
humanoid i believe and i think ray

3324
02:02:42,550 --> 02:02:41,119
stanford actually said this as well i

3325
02:02:44,229 --> 02:02:42,560
think it's in his book

3326
02:02:45,270 --> 02:02:44,239
that he didn't see any real facial

3327
02:02:47,350 --> 02:02:45,280
features

3328
02:02:48,790 --> 02:02:47,360
but he did he did i don't remember if he

3329
02:02:49,990 --> 02:02:48,800
said they were wearing some kind of

3330
02:02:52,070 --> 02:02:50,000
headgear and i think he didn't say

3331
02:02:53,669 --> 02:02:52,080
anything about headgear as well but

3332
02:02:55,430 --> 02:02:53,679
according to ray stanford according to

3333
02:02:58,229 --> 02:02:55,440
his book according to the documents that

3334
02:03:00,229 --> 02:02:58,239
i've been able to find he did see beings

3335
02:03:02,950 --> 02:03:00,239
other than just just the white coveralls

3336
02:03:04,709 --> 02:03:02,960
that that have been suggested so the you

3337
02:03:05,750 --> 02:03:04,719
know the documentation is pretty clear

3338
02:03:08,070 --> 02:03:05,760
on that

3339
02:03:10,790 --> 02:03:08,080
so i i he saw two beings he saw them get

3340
02:03:13,030 --> 02:03:10,800
back in the craft and take off i had

3341
02:03:14,629 --> 02:03:13,040
looked at some other cases

3342
02:03:17,510 --> 02:03:14,639
in the blue book files that talked about

3343
02:03:19,189 --> 02:03:17,520
alien creatures as well zamora's is one

3344
02:03:21,350 --> 02:03:19,199
of three i think it is where they where

3345
02:03:23,270 --> 02:03:21,360
there's a claim of alien beings and it's

3346
02:03:24,709 --> 02:03:23,280
labeled as unidentified most of them are

3347
02:03:26,790 --> 02:03:24,719
psychological you know the person who

3348
02:03:28,950 --> 02:03:26,800
saw this is crazy type stuff but there

3349
02:03:31,270 --> 02:03:28,960
are three cases and a couple of them a

3350
02:03:33,510 --> 02:03:31,280
couple of the other cases that are

3351
02:03:35,350 --> 02:03:33,520
suggested of psychological

3352
02:03:38,149 --> 02:03:35,360
kind of mirrors

3353
02:03:39,990 --> 02:03:38,159
the uh the way the the creatures acted

3354
02:03:42,390 --> 02:03:40,000
in the zamora case and and

3355
02:03:43,750 --> 02:03:42,400
one of those is just a one-page story

3356
02:03:45,589 --> 02:03:43,760
uh in the blue book files but not

3357
02:03:47,109 --> 02:03:45,599
labeled psychological from a guy named

3358
02:03:49,589 --> 02:03:47,119
oscar link who

3359
02:03:50,310 --> 02:03:49,599
saw something in germany in 1950 and

3360
02:03:52,470 --> 02:03:50,320
they

3361
02:03:54,470 --> 02:03:52,480
were two beings and once the beings

3362
02:03:56,629 --> 02:03:54,480
became aware of his presence or other

3363
02:03:58,229 --> 02:03:56,639
presence they got back in the craft and

3364
02:03:59,990 --> 02:03:58,239
it took off so there's there's kind of a

3365
02:04:01,430 --> 02:04:00,000
precedent for this thing too when you

3366
02:04:04,229 --> 02:04:01,440
when you look through the history of

3367
02:04:05,830 --> 02:04:04,239
ufology what about more recent cases

3368
02:04:06,709 --> 02:04:05,840
because again we were talking about the

3369
02:04:09,030 --> 02:04:06,719
fact

3370
02:04:11,750 --> 02:04:09,040
that the older cases were more direct

3371
02:04:14,390 --> 02:04:11,760
with more distinctive details are there

3372
02:04:16,870 --> 02:04:14,400
recent cases anyone erica certainly you

3373
02:04:17,669 --> 02:04:16,880
worked in investigations for mufon for a

3374
02:04:19,669 --> 02:04:17,679
while

3375
02:04:22,470 --> 02:04:19,679
any more recent cases where we have a

3376
02:04:24,870 --> 02:04:22,480
craft and we have aliens and the aliens

3377
02:04:27,910 --> 02:04:24,880
get back in the craft and off it goes

3378
02:04:28,950 --> 02:04:27,920
erica you know we don't have a lot of oh

3379
02:04:31,830 --> 02:04:28,960
you're going to turn that over to me

3380
02:04:38,390 --> 02:04:33,669
i'm now taking over the hosting duties

3381
02:04:41,990 --> 02:04:38,400
uh oh i like it sorry yes your eyes

3382
02:04:44,790 --> 02:04:42,000
guys what what about the uh rua case in

3383
02:04:47,109 --> 02:04:44,800
zimbabwe that that john mark

3384
02:04:50,070 --> 02:04:47,119
investigated that's relatively recent

3385
02:04:53,830 --> 02:04:50,080
likes of what 94 or something

3386
02:04:56,550 --> 02:04:53,840
uh and that was uh a mass sighting as in

3387
02:04:58,470 --> 02:04:56,560
you know a school class or two

3388
02:05:00,790 --> 02:04:58,480
a documentary has been made i don't know

3389
02:05:03,109 --> 02:05:00,800
if it's finished and out about that

3390
02:05:06,870 --> 02:05:03,119
relatively recently in the last year or

3391
02:05:09,430 --> 02:05:06,880
two um but that there was being seen a

3392
02:05:11,669 --> 02:05:09,440
craft scene multiple witnesses and they

3393
02:05:14,470 --> 02:05:11,679
are speaking just now so just as an

3394
02:05:18,709 --> 02:05:14,480
example that to me is a decent recent

3395
02:05:20,229 --> 02:05:18,719
case that maybe could be looked at more

3396
02:05:21,109 --> 02:05:20,239
well i think you're right there's there

3397
02:05:22,709 --> 02:05:21,119
are

3398
02:05:24,070 --> 02:05:22,719
cases i think there's there's a couple i

3399
02:05:25,750 --> 02:05:24,080
think in australia that are that are

3400
02:05:27,510 --> 02:05:25,760
fairly recent as well that that could be

3401
02:05:29,109 --> 02:05:27,520
looked at where there's there's

3402
02:05:30,870 --> 02:05:29,119
occupants seen

3403
02:05:33,109 --> 02:05:30,880
but i'm not that familiar with those

3404
02:05:34,550 --> 02:05:33,119
cases so if you know somebody else has

3405
02:05:37,430 --> 02:05:34,560
information on that that you know have

3406
02:05:38,709 --> 02:05:37,440
at it i i just don't have that

3407
02:05:41,430 --> 02:05:38,719
i don't have the information on those

3408
02:05:42,790 --> 02:05:41,440
cases uh at the moment you know and i i

3409
02:05:44,629 --> 02:05:42,800
will just i just got to throw this in

3410
02:05:46,550 --> 02:05:44,639
there but there was a great case just

3411
02:05:48,870 --> 02:05:46,560
recently that was the american airlines

3412
02:05:50,709 --> 02:05:48,880
flight 434 case

3413
02:05:52,790 --> 02:05:50,719
which was you know i just have to say

3414
02:05:54,790 --> 02:05:52,800
this but this was a a case that william

3415
02:05:57,030 --> 02:05:54,800
puckett and myself and jeff cox

3416
02:06:00,629 --> 02:05:57,040
investigated where there was significant

3417
02:06:03,830 --> 02:06:00,639
radar data and audio logs from the faa

3418
02:06:06,709 --> 02:06:03,840
so there are current time cases out

3419
02:06:08,390 --> 02:06:06,719
there that are good and i think for me

3420
02:06:11,830 --> 02:06:08,400
as somebody investigating what's taking

3421
02:06:13,990 --> 02:06:11,840
place now it is really looking at areas

3422
02:06:16,470 --> 02:06:14,000
with unusual like brown mountain like

3423
02:06:18,470 --> 02:06:16,480
skin walker and you went to basin like

3424
02:06:19,589 --> 02:06:18,480
heshtallin places where you're seeing

3425
02:06:22,070 --> 02:06:19,599
recurrent

3426
02:06:24,709 --> 02:06:22,080
light phenomena and heshtalin has done a

3427
02:06:26,790 --> 02:06:24,719
30-year study of that where they've got

3428
02:06:29,189 --> 02:06:26,800
five different types of light phenomena

3429
02:06:30,790 --> 02:06:29,199
and they feel they behave intelligently

3430
02:06:33,270 --> 02:06:30,800
so perhaps it's changed we just need to

3431
02:06:35,030 --> 02:06:33,280
shift our focus well and i think ted

3432
02:06:37,510 --> 02:06:35,040
phillips has done some wonderful stuff

3433
02:06:38,550 --> 02:06:37,520
with um light phenomenon if you will

3434
02:06:40,709 --> 02:06:38,560
down in

3435
02:06:43,189 --> 02:06:40,719
southern missouri and things like that i

3436
02:06:44,550 --> 02:06:43,199
seem to find myself sucked into cases

3437
02:06:46,390 --> 02:06:44,560
inadvertently

3438
02:06:48,790 --> 02:06:46,400
and this is how i ended up with the

3439
02:06:50,629 --> 02:06:48,800
socorro case was you know ben and tony

3440
02:06:52,390 --> 02:06:50,639
were talking about some things that i

3441
02:06:54,069 --> 02:06:52,400
hadn't heard before about the socorro

3442
02:06:55,109 --> 02:06:54,079
case and i became interested in seeing

3443
02:06:57,350 --> 02:06:55,119
if i could

3444
02:06:59,430 --> 02:06:57,360
identify more information about this and

3445
02:07:00,870 --> 02:06:59,440
kind of got sucked into the socorro case

3446
02:07:02,390 --> 02:07:00,880
and then became very interested in

3447
02:07:04,790 --> 02:07:02,400
seeing how much further i could go and

3448
02:07:06,229 --> 02:07:04,800
having an opportunity to talk to some of

3449
02:07:08,229 --> 02:07:06,239
the people

3450
02:07:09,750 --> 02:07:08,239
in socorro and that sort of thing and

3451
02:07:12,069 --> 02:07:09,760
and in finding

3452
02:07:13,910 --> 02:07:12,079
the scads of documentation that kind of

3453
02:07:15,109 --> 02:07:13,920
leads us in one direction

3454
02:07:16,709 --> 02:07:15,119
and and

3455
02:07:18,390 --> 02:07:16,719
learning about the end of blue book from

3456
02:07:21,030 --> 02:07:18,400
from carmen murano the one thing that he

3457
02:07:23,669 --> 02:07:21,040
said that kind of stuck in my mind was i

3458
02:07:25,510 --> 02:07:23,679
had asked him about getting ufo cases

3459
02:07:26,790 --> 02:07:25,520
from around the country and during his

3460
02:07:29,589 --> 02:07:26,800
time there he said most of them came

3461
02:07:31,270 --> 02:07:29,599
from ohio and indiana and pennsylvania

3462
02:07:32,790 --> 02:07:31,280
right around

3463
02:07:35,030 --> 02:07:32,800
dayton ohio and i went back and looked

3464
02:07:37,510 --> 02:07:35,040
at the index for project blue book and

3465
02:07:40,069 --> 02:07:37,520
and he's right most of the cases were

3466
02:07:41,990 --> 02:07:40,079
from the local area and other cases if

3467
02:07:44,229 --> 02:07:42,000
they've been reported the air force

3468
02:07:46,870 --> 02:07:44,239
didn't make their way to project blue

3469
02:07:50,310 --> 02:07:46,880
book they ended up on the desk of

3470
02:07:51,510 --> 02:07:50,320
whomever at a remote air force base or

3471
02:07:54,069 --> 02:07:51,520
may have ended up at the content

3472
02:07:55,430 --> 02:07:54,079
committee rather than project blue book

3473
02:07:57,189 --> 02:07:55,440
isn't it interesting i have to say with

3474
02:07:59,990 --> 02:07:57,199
regard to the blue book cases i mean

3475
02:08:01,750 --> 02:08:00,000
i've been looking at utah cases you know

3476
02:08:04,310 --> 02:08:01,760
there was the woody harris case of

3477
02:08:05,270 --> 02:08:04,320
course there's the delbert new house

3478
02:08:08,470 --> 02:08:05,280
case

3479
02:08:10,950 --> 02:08:08,480
and you've talked about that

3480
02:08:13,030 --> 02:08:10,960
pretty extensively on your blog and and

3481
02:08:14,950 --> 02:08:13,040
in lectures from my recollection but i

3482
02:08:17,430 --> 02:08:14,960
mean there when you look at cases like

3483
02:08:19,189 --> 02:08:17,440
that and then you begin to to put

3484
02:08:22,229 --> 02:08:19,199
put the bigger picture together some of

3485
02:08:24,790 --> 02:08:22,239
these cases in specific areas are it's

3486
02:08:25,589 --> 02:08:24,800
kind of a recurrent theme

3487
02:08:27,109 --> 02:08:25,599
but

3488
02:08:30,149 --> 02:08:27,119
my whole thing

3489
02:08:31,910 --> 02:08:30,159
i'm kind of stumbling around here i have

3490
02:08:33,350 --> 02:08:31,920
access to lots and lots of records here

3491
02:08:35,270 --> 02:08:33,360
in my house

3492
02:08:37,350 --> 02:08:35,280
and i don't have

3493
02:08:38,950 --> 02:08:37,360
a great deal of stuff in the lab from

3494
02:08:40,790 --> 02:08:38,960
from the last three or four years but i

3495
02:08:42,390 --> 02:08:40,800
have a great deal of stuff i can go back

3496
02:08:43,910 --> 02:08:42,400
to the project blue book files i have a

3497
02:08:45,510 --> 02:08:43,920
set of project blue book files which is

3498
02:08:46,709 --> 02:08:45,520
a big deal now i mean

3499
02:08:48,310 --> 02:08:46,719
you can go to

3500
02:08:49,750 --> 02:08:48,320
the internet and see the whole project

3501
02:08:51,750 --> 02:08:49,760
blue book files

3502
02:08:53,589 --> 02:08:51,760
but it's easy for me to research some of

3503
02:08:55,589 --> 02:08:53,599
the older cases so when you you know you

3504
02:08:57,350 --> 02:08:55,599
mention new house i can go pull up that

3505
02:08:58,790 --> 02:08:57,360
case from the project blue book files

3506
02:09:00,470 --> 02:08:58,800
you talk about the lubbock lights for

3507
02:09:02,390 --> 02:09:00,480
example i can pull up that case from the

3508
02:09:04,310 --> 02:09:02,400
project blue book files i also had an

3509
02:09:05,669 --> 02:09:04,320
opportunity in the mid-1990s to talk to

3510
02:09:08,310 --> 02:09:05,679
carl hart he's the guy that took

3511
02:09:10,390 --> 02:09:08,320
photographs of the lubbock lights the

3512
02:09:12,149 --> 02:09:10,400
question i finally put to him because at

3513
02:09:14,870 --> 02:09:12,159
the time i talked to him i think he was

3514
02:09:17,109 --> 02:09:14,880
61 years old and you find that a lot of

3515
02:09:19,270 --> 02:09:17,119
the pictures from the 1950s 1960s were

3516
02:09:21,189 --> 02:09:19,280
taken by teenagers and they are now

3517
02:09:23,350 --> 02:09:21,199
confessing that they faked him when i

3518
02:09:24,870 --> 02:09:23,360
talked to carl hart about this he says i

3519
02:09:26,310 --> 02:09:24,880
still don't know what i photographed you

3520
02:09:27,510 --> 02:09:26,320
know he wouldn't say it was alien he

3521
02:09:29,109 --> 02:09:27,520
wouldn't say anything says i just don't

3522
02:09:30,229 --> 02:09:29,119
know what i photographed well you know

3523
02:09:32,229 --> 02:09:30,239
he had an opportunity nobody's going to

3524
02:09:34,310 --> 02:09:32,239
come after him in today's environment

3525
02:09:35,990 --> 02:09:34,320
say you're a bad guy for having fake

3526
02:09:38,229 --> 02:09:36,000
this photo these photographs you know

3527
02:09:39,990 --> 02:09:38,239
here's a chance to come clean and he his

3528
02:09:42,550 --> 02:09:40,000
attitude was i don't know what i what i

3529
02:09:44,310 --> 02:09:42,560
photograph so i mean we've got that sort

3530
02:09:46,390 --> 02:09:44,320
of thing but i have that information

3531
02:09:49,030 --> 02:09:46,400
available i happen to be in lubbock is

3532
02:09:50,470 --> 02:09:49,040
what was going on i looked up his name

3533
02:09:53,350 --> 02:09:50,480
in the phone book on a lark and it was

3534
02:09:55,589 --> 02:09:53,360
there so i called him to chat about that

3535
02:09:57,270 --> 02:09:55,599
i kind of like the historical aspect

3536
02:09:58,870 --> 02:09:57,280
because i can get the documentation and

3537
02:10:00,870 --> 02:09:58,880
on some of the newer cases i can find

3538
02:10:03,669 --> 02:10:00,880
the witnesses and i can chat with them

3539
02:10:05,589 --> 02:10:03,679
for the level and case actually hours

3540
02:10:08,470 --> 02:10:05,599
later there was a guy named glenn toy

3541
02:10:11,189 --> 02:10:08,480
and another fellow mps at white sands

3542
02:10:13,030 --> 02:10:11,199
who saw an object in the sky i was able

3543
02:10:15,510 --> 02:10:13,040
to get the glenn toy and chat with him

3544
02:10:18,229 --> 02:10:15,520
about what he'd seen in 1957 and again

3545
02:10:20,870 --> 02:10:18,239
you know it's 1957 but i got his

3546
02:10:22,470 --> 02:10:20,880
perspective on what he had seen that

3547
02:10:24,069 --> 02:10:22,480
night as opposed to what it said in the

3548
02:10:26,229 --> 02:10:24,079
air force file and the investigation

3549
02:10:29,270 --> 02:10:26,239
that they had done on it kevin randle

3550
02:10:34,660 --> 02:10:29,280
erica lukes gox makai gene steinberg

3551
02:10:34,670 --> 02:10:39,830
[Music]

3552
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3653
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hey this is marie d jones the author of

3654
02:15:01,990 --> 02:14:59,360
this book is from the future

3655
02:15:12,629 --> 02:15:02,000
and you are listening to the paracast

3656
02:15:15,589 --> 02:15:14,310
you know just in case people are

3657
02:15:19,430 --> 02:15:15,599
wondering

3658
02:15:21,830 --> 02:15:19,440
we are heard in lubbock texas on krfe

3659
02:15:24,310 --> 02:15:21,840
radio 5 80 a.m

3660
02:15:25,430 --> 02:15:24,320
okay so we do have a very direct

3661
02:15:27,510 --> 02:15:25,440
audience

3662
02:15:29,990 --> 02:15:27,520
in lubbock so if anyone has any memories

3663
02:15:32,149 --> 02:15:30,000
of that era let us know in the show here

3664
02:15:34,229 --> 02:15:32,159
we'll forward it over to kevin randle

3665
02:15:36,390 --> 02:15:34,239
wait wait wait i want to interrupt on

3666
02:15:38,149 --> 02:15:36,400
lubbock if you're in lubbock texas and

3667
02:15:39,990 --> 02:15:38,159
you want to see the scene where karl

3668
02:15:42,470 --> 02:15:40,000
hart took the pictures

3669
02:15:45,189 --> 02:15:42,480
it's a pizza hut now and it's on i think

3670
02:15:47,430 --> 02:15:45,199
20th street i think it's a big long

3671
02:15:49,109 --> 02:15:47,440
street through lubbock but carl hart

3672
02:15:50,550 --> 02:15:49,119
told me that that was where his house

3673
02:15:52,310 --> 02:15:50,560
used to be and i actually picked up a

3674
02:15:55,030 --> 02:15:52,320
couple of stones from the from the

3675
02:15:57,030 --> 02:15:55,040
parking lot so i have i have

3676
02:15:59,830 --> 02:15:57,040
rocks from the scene where carl hart

3677
02:16:03,030 --> 02:15:59,840
took the famous lubbock light pictures

3678
02:16:05,510 --> 02:16:03,040
okay so pepperoni pan pizza from pizza

3679
02:16:07,910 --> 02:16:05,520
hut in lubbock texas next time i'm there

3680
02:16:09,750 --> 02:16:07,920
or the first time i'm there will

3681
02:16:11,669 --> 02:16:09,760
welcome that

3682
02:16:14,069 --> 02:16:11,679
buy us all lunch that's how it's going

3683
02:16:16,149 --> 02:16:14,079
to work let's kind of just wrap roswell

3684
02:16:17,030 --> 02:16:16,159
before we go back to these other cases

3685
02:16:20,709 --> 02:16:17,040
kevin

3686
02:16:23,030 --> 02:16:20,719
so let's take a look at it mj 12

3687
02:16:24,709 --> 02:16:23,040
is fake and we seem to know

3688
02:16:26,709 --> 02:16:24,719
who's responsible

3689
02:16:28,229 --> 02:16:26,719
there were no bodies

3690
02:16:30,149 --> 02:16:28,239
seen with russia no

3691
02:16:32,469 --> 02:16:30,159
no no that's that's not quite right

3692
02:16:34,790 --> 02:16:32,479
because once again you know um most of

3693
02:16:36,629 --> 02:16:34,800
the people who talked about the bodies

3694
02:16:38,549 --> 02:16:36,639
were lying about it you know i think

3695
02:16:41,509 --> 02:16:38,559
glenn dennis for example but there's

3696
02:16:43,190 --> 02:16:41,519
there's others like thomas gonzalez who

3697
02:16:46,469 --> 02:16:43,200
never really talked about this stuff he

3698
02:16:48,709 --> 02:16:46,479
was very quiet quiet about it but he

3699
02:16:50,389 --> 02:16:48,719
would uh carve figures

3700
02:16:52,309 --> 02:16:50,399
and i've got pictures of those figures

3701
02:16:53,910 --> 02:16:52,319
actually don ecker got the pictures of

3702
02:16:56,150 --> 02:16:53,920
the little figures that he carved of the

3703
02:16:59,270 --> 02:16:56,160
alien body so there is some evidence of

3704
02:17:01,509 --> 02:16:59,280
bodies but the the real point is it's

3705
02:17:02,469 --> 02:17:01,519
not real robust evidence you know here's

3706
02:17:04,549 --> 02:17:02,479
a guy

3707
02:17:05,910 --> 02:17:04,559
he was in roswell in 1947 we can prove

3708
02:17:08,389 --> 02:17:05,920
it through the documentation that he was

3709
02:17:10,469 --> 02:17:08,399
there in 1947 he said that he saw the

3710
02:17:13,110 --> 02:17:10,479
bodies that's that's where we are on

3711
02:17:14,469 --> 02:17:13,120
that on that sort of thing so there is

3712
02:17:16,389 --> 02:17:14,479
some testimony

3713
02:17:18,549 --> 02:17:16,399
from first-hand witnesses to the bodies

3714
02:17:21,349 --> 02:17:18,559
there's a larger body of testimony from

3715
02:17:23,990 --> 02:17:21,359
second-hand people such as frankie rowe

3716
02:17:26,629 --> 02:17:24,000
elaine vay for example who's whose

3717
02:17:28,950 --> 02:17:26,639
cousin or uncle darwin rasmussen saw

3718
02:17:31,509 --> 02:17:28,960
bodies there's the brown family whose

3719
02:17:33,509 --> 02:17:31,519
father melvin brown saw a body so there

3720
02:17:36,389 --> 02:17:33,519
is some testimony about that that hasn't

3721
02:17:38,549 --> 02:17:36,399
completely fallen apart but most of the

3722
02:17:40,389 --> 02:17:38,559
ones that were most compelling have

3723
02:17:42,389 --> 02:17:40,399
fallen apart they fell apart but there

3724
02:17:44,950 --> 02:17:42,399
might be something there still but we

3725
02:17:45,990 --> 02:17:44,960
can't prove it at this point now here's

3726
02:17:47,669 --> 02:17:46,000
the thing that gets back to the

3727
02:17:49,910 --> 02:17:47,679
beginning and end of it

3728
02:17:51,830 --> 02:17:49,920
is there anything any evidence would

3729
02:17:55,509 --> 02:17:51,840
ever to indicate

3730
02:17:58,629 --> 02:17:55,519
what happened at roswell had any kind

3731
02:18:00,709 --> 02:17:58,639
of advanced and or alien connection

3732
02:18:02,709 --> 02:18:00,719
nothing anymore

3733
02:18:04,790 --> 02:18:02,719
if you look at bill brazel for example

3734
02:18:07,110 --> 02:18:04,800
and he handled debris he's talking about

3735
02:18:08,469 --> 02:18:07,120
fiber optics he's talking about this

3736
02:18:10,870 --> 02:18:08,479
memory metal

3737
02:18:13,589 --> 02:18:10,880
so there is some evidence to suggest in

3738
02:18:16,309 --> 02:18:13,599
advanced technology but it's all

3739
02:18:18,629 --> 02:18:16,319
testimony it's all witness based so you

3740
02:18:21,190 --> 02:18:18,639
can reject that testimony out of hand if

3741
02:18:23,190 --> 02:18:21,200
you wish to do so i don't wish to do so

3742
02:18:25,190 --> 02:18:23,200
but the real problem is

3743
02:18:28,629 --> 02:18:25,200
uh when you look at the vast body of the

3744
02:18:30,709 --> 02:18:28,639
testimony it's just not very robust and

3745
02:18:33,509 --> 02:18:30,719
it is basically just testimony and

3746
02:18:35,910 --> 02:18:33,519
there's just very few credible people

3747
02:18:38,309 --> 02:18:35,920
left when you go down the the list of

3748
02:18:40,469 --> 02:18:38,319
witnesses that testimony can be trusted

3749
02:18:42,309 --> 02:18:40,479
somewhat so you've got anecdotal

3750
02:18:45,429 --> 02:18:42,319
testimony that suggests something

3751
02:18:46,709 --> 02:18:45,439
advanced you have no terrestrial

3752
02:18:49,509 --> 02:18:46,719
explanation

3753
02:18:52,549 --> 02:18:49,519
that eliminates roswell is meaning it's

3754
02:18:54,389 --> 02:18:52,559
a thrustly based thing so that's kind of

3755
02:18:55,429 --> 02:18:54,399
where we are we really don't know what

3756
02:18:57,750 --> 02:18:55,439
it was

3757
02:18:59,509 --> 02:18:57,760
no possibility of a balloon i mean

3758
02:19:01,910 --> 02:18:59,519
you've talked a lot about the scheduling

3759
02:19:03,910 --> 02:19:01,920
for mogul and all this other stuff but

3760
02:19:08,150 --> 02:19:03,920
even assuming records were not kept

3761
02:19:09,270 --> 02:19:08,160
properly were lost evidence forgotten or

3762
02:19:11,190 --> 02:19:09,280
mislaid

3763
02:19:12,790 --> 02:19:11,200
the problem is and i was just i'm going

3764
02:19:15,830 --> 02:19:12,800
to put something up on my no i just put

3765
02:19:17,429 --> 02:19:15,840
something up on my blog about that um

3766
02:19:19,190 --> 02:19:17,439
the article from the roswell daily

3767
02:19:21,110 --> 02:19:19,200
record harass rancher sorry told about

3768
02:19:23,509 --> 02:19:21,120
it that sort of thing and if you look at

3769
02:19:25,509 --> 02:19:23,519
that which leads you to the balloon uh

3770
02:19:28,070 --> 02:19:25,519
solution it

3771
02:19:29,910 --> 02:19:28,080
the article is contradictory you know it

3772
02:19:31,190 --> 02:19:29,920
the the rancher brings the stuff into

3773
02:19:33,669 --> 02:19:31,200
the sheriff to show it some of the stuff

3774
02:19:35,110 --> 02:19:33,679
to the sheriff and marcel and cavett

3775
02:19:36,870 --> 02:19:35,120
look at this stuff and say yeah we got

3776
02:19:38,389 --> 02:19:36,880
to go out to the ranch but if you look

3777
02:19:39,509 --> 02:19:38,399
at the article it says well they've

3778
02:19:40,709 --> 02:19:39,519
already picked it all up there's no

3779
02:19:41,910 --> 02:19:40,719
reason for them to go to the ranch and

3780
02:19:43,750 --> 02:19:41,920
if you brought some of the debris in

3781
02:19:45,589 --> 02:19:43,760
there's absolutely no reason for them to

3782
02:19:48,230 --> 02:19:45,599
go out to do anything more so the

3783
02:19:50,150 --> 02:19:48,240
article is self-contradictory

3784
02:19:52,550 --> 02:19:50,160
and the balloon explanation just simply

3785
02:19:53,670 --> 02:19:52,560
doesn't work based on the records that

3786
02:19:56,469 --> 02:19:53,680
do exist

3787
02:19:58,550 --> 02:19:56,479
and if uh i'm required to

3788
02:20:01,510 --> 02:19:58,560
uh admit that the records for the

3789
02:20:03,670 --> 02:20:01,520
roswell crash are non-existent i don't

3790
02:20:05,590 --> 02:20:03,680
underst or the the ones that suggest it

3791
02:20:08,630 --> 02:20:05,600
wasn't real the twining letter for

3792
02:20:11,349 --> 02:20:08,640
example if i'm if i'm required to accept

3793
02:20:13,590 --> 02:20:11,359
that why isn't the other side

3794
02:20:15,190 --> 02:20:13,600
required to accept the idea that the

3795
02:20:17,030 --> 02:20:15,200
mogul flight was canceled because that's

3796
02:20:20,710 --> 02:20:17,040
what the record says

3797
02:20:22,630 --> 02:20:20,720
okay so if you allow for those records

3798
02:20:23,830 --> 02:20:22,640
to be partly incorrect it still doesn't

3799
02:20:25,429 --> 02:20:23,840
allow for

3800
02:20:27,990 --> 02:20:25,439
some kind of balloon

3801
02:20:31,270 --> 02:20:28,000
no i don't think so based on based on

3802
02:20:33,190 --> 02:20:31,280
the testimony you've got cavett who said

3803
02:20:35,110 --> 02:20:33,200
originally and said to me

3804
02:20:36,389 --> 02:20:35,120
that they were too busy to go out on any

3805
02:20:39,110 --> 02:20:36,399
balloon

3806
02:20:40,790 --> 02:20:39,120
reconnaissance he said later to weaver

3807
02:20:43,110 --> 02:20:40,800
when they got out colonel weaver was the

3808
02:20:45,270 --> 02:20:43,120
air force investigator on it in the

3809
02:20:47,270 --> 02:20:45,280
1990s when they got out to the ranch he

3810
02:20:49,030 --> 02:20:47,280
said he knew immediately was a balloon

3811
02:20:50,870 --> 02:20:49,040
and weaver didn't ask the next question

3812
02:20:52,950 --> 02:20:50,880
was well did you manage to communicate

3813
02:20:54,550 --> 02:20:52,960
this rather vital piece of intelligence

3814
02:20:56,150 --> 02:20:54,560
to jesse marcel

3815
02:20:57,429 --> 02:20:56,160
you know jess it's a balloon let's go

3816
02:20:58,710 --> 02:20:57,439
home

3817
02:21:00,630 --> 02:20:58,720
so you've got you know you've got those

3818
02:21:02,150 --> 02:21:00,640
sorts of problems i i just think the the

3819
02:21:03,990 --> 02:21:02,160
record is pretty clear on that it's not

3820
02:21:05,510 --> 02:21:04,000
a mogul balloon it's not a balloon of

3821
02:21:08,230 --> 02:21:05,520
any kind it's not a rocket it's not

3822
02:21:11,830 --> 02:21:08,240
experimental aircraft it's not any uh

3823
02:21:13,429 --> 02:21:11,840
anything that we can find at this point

3824
02:21:14,710 --> 02:21:13,439
which is not to say sometime down the

3825
02:21:16,309 --> 02:21:14,720
future in the future somebody will say

3826
02:21:18,309 --> 02:21:16,319
here's here's the solution to roz and we

3827
02:21:19,990 --> 02:21:18,319
say yeah god that's right

3828
02:21:23,190 --> 02:21:20,000
it's just in the same vault as the

3829
02:21:25,190 --> 02:21:23,200
evidence for the kennedy assassination

3830
02:21:27,590 --> 02:21:25,200
which unfortunately was done by lee

3831
02:21:28,950 --> 02:21:27,600
harvey oswald

3832
02:21:30,710 --> 02:21:28,960
so

3833
02:21:32,389 --> 02:21:30,720
that's why you believe he was the lone

3834
02:21:33,750 --> 02:21:32,399
gunman that was it

3835
02:21:35,830 --> 02:21:33,760
yes

3836
02:21:38,630 --> 02:21:35,840
i think i think again it's it's you know

3837
02:21:40,790 --> 02:21:38,640
our technology and and you look at the

3838
02:21:42,150 --> 02:21:40,800
technology today and they explain how

3839
02:21:44,790 --> 02:21:42,160
all of these

3840
02:21:46,790 --> 02:21:44,800
mysterious things happened in in dealey

3841
02:21:49,349 --> 02:21:46,800
plaza and you say yeah it makes sense

3842
02:21:51,110 --> 02:21:49,359
leave her we oswald just

3843
02:21:52,950 --> 02:21:51,120
for some bizarre reason decided to shoot

3844
02:21:55,349 --> 02:21:52,960
kennedy because he was there and kennedy

3845
02:21:56,870 --> 02:21:55,359
was there and he could do it

3846
02:21:57,830 --> 02:21:56,880
well of course they make a big argument

3847
02:21:59,990 --> 02:21:57,840
here

3848
02:22:02,070 --> 02:22:00,000
mark lane did back in the 60s when i

3849
02:22:02,870 --> 02:22:02,080
first saw him give speeches

3850
02:22:07,670 --> 02:22:02,880
that

3851
02:22:09,510 --> 02:22:07,680
it's so badly made and doesn't aim

3852
02:22:10,630 --> 02:22:09,520
correctly but i kept thinking when he

3853
02:22:12,469 --> 02:22:10,640
was doing this

3854
02:22:14,790 --> 02:22:12,479
what about the exception even if there's

3855
02:22:16,150 --> 02:22:14,800
a 90 percent probability

3856
02:22:17,830 --> 02:22:16,160
that he couldn't have done it with this

3857
02:22:20,230 --> 02:22:17,840
weapon because it's just not a good

3858
02:22:23,110 --> 02:22:20,240
weapon what about the 10 chance that

3859
02:22:26,389 --> 02:22:23,120
just everything was there at the right

3860
02:22:28,469 --> 02:22:26,399
or wrong time got all the ducks in a row

3861
02:22:31,110 --> 02:22:28,479
everything worked perfectly for the one

3862
02:22:34,550 --> 02:22:31,120
and only time that 10 percentile or five

3863
02:22:36,150 --> 02:22:34,560
percentile and that's what happened

3864
02:22:37,349 --> 02:22:36,160
we call that the golden bb in the

3865
02:22:38,870 --> 02:22:37,359
military

3866
02:22:40,710 --> 02:22:38,880
you know there's no way that shot should

3867
02:22:43,030 --> 02:22:40,720
have hit anybody but it did

3868
02:22:44,630 --> 02:22:43,040
um and i think you go back and you look

3869
02:22:46,230 --> 02:22:44,640
at some of the evidence today and they

3870
02:22:48,070 --> 02:22:46,240
they look at the the rifle they say well

3871
02:22:50,230 --> 02:22:48,080
it wasn't that poorly made

3872
02:22:51,910 --> 02:22:50,240
and oswald could have gotten the shots

3873
02:22:54,230 --> 02:22:51,920
off in the time he did and he was

3874
02:22:55,990 --> 02:22:54,240
familiar with the weapon he had uh

3875
02:22:57,910 --> 02:22:56,000
practice with the weapon so you know

3876
02:23:00,870 --> 02:22:57,920
there's all of that that comes into into

3877
02:23:02,790 --> 02:23:00,880
play i think in the 1960s when lane and

3878
02:23:04,230 --> 02:23:02,800
these guys were looking at this stuff

3879
02:23:05,670 --> 02:23:04,240
they were raising some legitimate

3880
02:23:07,190 --> 02:23:05,680
questions but i think the questions have

3881
02:23:08,790 --> 02:23:07,200
been answered now and i think we're in

3882
02:23:10,550 --> 02:23:08,800
the same point with roswell there's some

3883
02:23:12,710 --> 02:23:10,560
legitimate questions that were asked at

3884
02:23:14,070 --> 02:23:12,720
the time and we've got answers for most

3885
02:23:15,510 --> 02:23:14,080
of them but we don't have answers for

3886
02:23:17,510 --> 02:23:15,520
all of them yet and

3887
02:23:19,030 --> 02:23:17,520
maybe at some point we'll get those

3888
02:23:20,469 --> 02:23:19,040
answers i'm not sure where we would look

3889
02:23:21,670 --> 02:23:20,479
we should look for those answers i don't

3890
02:23:23,349 --> 02:23:21,680
have a clue as to where we look for

3891
02:23:24,950 --> 02:23:23,359
those answers at this point because i've

3892
02:23:27,110 --> 02:23:24,960
tried everything that i can think of but

3893
02:23:29,750 --> 02:23:27,120
maybe somebody will come up with a

3894
02:23:31,510 --> 02:23:29,760
inspiration and find find the final bit

3895
02:23:32,870 --> 02:23:31,520
of evidence for us

3896
02:23:34,710 --> 02:23:32,880
well if you remember the movie the

3897
02:23:37,190 --> 02:23:34,720
raiders of the lost ark

3898
02:23:39,349 --> 02:23:37,200
it's down in warehouse 13. that's where

3899
02:23:42,150 --> 02:23:39,359
everything is so all the evidence we

3900
02:23:44,469 --> 02:23:42,160
need to prove ufos down in warehouse 13.

3901
02:23:47,429 --> 02:23:44,479
so as we progress to our final segment

3902
02:23:49,990 --> 02:23:47,439
or so here can we find any case out

3903
02:23:52,070 --> 02:23:50,000
there that would be roswell number two

3904
02:23:55,270 --> 02:23:52,080
would be

3905
02:23:57,429 --> 02:23:55,280
eligible to become the cultural icon

3906
02:24:00,469 --> 02:23:57,439
the cultural myth but maybe has more

3907
02:24:02,790 --> 02:24:00,479
going for it now anything out there

3908
02:24:05,190 --> 02:24:02,800
i like to pose a cliffhanger here now if

3909
02:24:07,510 --> 02:24:05,200
you have the power cast plus you'll have

3910
02:24:09,750 --> 02:24:07,520
no interruption whatever except for a

3911
02:24:12,309 --> 02:24:09,760
few seconds of music if you're listening

3912
02:24:13,670 --> 02:24:12,319
to the standard version the free version

3913
02:24:15,429 --> 02:24:13,680
of the show they'll be four and a half

3914
02:24:17,110 --> 02:24:15,439
minutes before we get the answer from

3915
02:24:18,230 --> 02:24:17,120
kevin randle about whether there is a

3916
02:24:20,389 --> 02:24:18,240
roswell

3917
02:24:22,790 --> 02:24:20,399
number two out there that should be

3918
02:24:25,510 --> 02:24:22,800
looked into or has been looked into

3919
02:24:29,700 --> 02:24:25,520
kevin randle erica luke skog's makai

3920
02:24:29,710 --> 02:24:39,910
[Music]

3921
02:24:47,429 --> 02:24:43,429
thank you for listening to gcn

3922
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be sure to visit gcnlive.com today

3923
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3962
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3964
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[Music]

4018
02:28:57,670 --> 02:28:56,070
this is micah hanks of the grayling

4019
02:28:59,910 --> 02:28:57,680
report and you're listening to the

4020
02:29:04,840 --> 02:28:59,920
paracast the gold standard of paranormal

4021
02:29:04,850 --> 02:29:09,349
[Music]

4022
02:29:14,710 --> 02:29:11,830
roswell number two kevin randall is

4023
02:29:17,349 --> 02:29:14,720
there one or would cecaro qualify i

4024
02:29:19,910 --> 02:29:17,359
would say before soccaro i would say

4025
02:29:21,910 --> 02:29:19,920
levelland texas in november of 1957

4026
02:29:24,309 --> 02:29:21,920
because of the number of witnesses who

4027
02:29:26,389 --> 02:29:24,319
independently reported the craft to the

4028
02:29:27,830 --> 02:29:26,399
local law enforcement the interaction

4029
02:29:29,429 --> 02:29:27,840
with the environment the stalling of the

4030
02:29:30,870 --> 02:29:29,439
car engines the dimming of the lights

4031
02:29:33,510 --> 02:29:30,880
that sort of thing and then the

4032
02:29:35,349 --> 02:29:33,520
subsequent events at white sands within

4033
02:29:37,590 --> 02:29:35,359
hours of the socorro event that would be

4034
02:29:39,670 --> 02:29:37,600
a number two i think rendelsham forest

4035
02:29:41,510 --> 02:29:39,680
would be uh interesting number two and i

4036
02:29:43,670 --> 02:29:41,520
mentioned that i just had charles hall

4037
02:29:45,510 --> 02:29:43,680
on my program talking about his

4038
02:29:46,950 --> 02:29:45,520
experiences with rendelsham forest and

4039
02:29:49,270 --> 02:29:46,960
he gave some very interesting

4040
02:29:51,590 --> 02:29:49,280
information to me uh during that

4041
02:29:55,309 --> 02:29:51,600
interview so we've got rendelsham forest

4042
02:29:57,830 --> 02:29:55,319
as a very interesting case uh the

4043
02:29:59,270 --> 02:29:57,840
jal1628 the airliner i think is

4044
02:30:01,990 --> 02:29:59,280
interesting but only because all the

4045
02:30:04,550 --> 02:30:02,000
radar data exists uh john callahan who

4046
02:30:06,389 --> 02:30:04,560
is the investigator for the faa has all

4047
02:30:07,349 --> 02:30:06,399
the radar data so you can watch the

4048
02:30:09,270 --> 02:30:07,359
thing

4049
02:30:11,429 --> 02:30:09,280
in real time if you will

4050
02:30:13,750 --> 02:30:11,439
based on the radar data that that was

4051
02:30:15,190 --> 02:30:13,760
recovered back in the 1980s for that

4052
02:30:16,950 --> 02:30:15,200
case so there's you know there's three

4053
02:30:19,270 --> 02:30:16,960
cases where there's some really

4054
02:30:21,429 --> 02:30:19,280
interesting things going on you know i

4055
02:30:23,270 --> 02:30:21,439
want to just ask you kevin because again

4056
02:30:25,830 --> 02:30:23,280
i've heard you talk about this case and

4057
02:30:29,190 --> 02:30:25,840
it took place in utah and las vegas and

4058
02:30:32,710 --> 02:30:29,200
it was with the april 18 1962

4059
02:30:33,830 --> 02:30:32,720
crash fighting i'm afraid

4060
02:30:35,750 --> 02:30:33,840
that the

4061
02:30:38,070 --> 02:30:35,760
las vegas end of it probably was a

4062
02:30:40,070 --> 02:30:38,080
meteor and i've come to that conclusion

4063
02:30:42,070 --> 02:30:40,080
based on you know seeing the meteor

4064
02:30:44,230 --> 02:30:42,080
compilations on youtube and that sort of

4065
02:30:46,950 --> 02:30:44,240
thing so that that very worrisome to me

4066
02:30:48,870 --> 02:30:46,960
and the descriptions given by the people

4067
02:30:51,030 --> 02:30:48,880
in las vegas and talking to the

4068
02:30:53,910 --> 02:30:51,040
sheriff's deputies and all of the people

4069
02:30:55,590 --> 02:30:53,920
the utah end of the case is still very

4070
02:30:57,190 --> 02:30:55,600
problematic because you've got the

4071
02:30:59,349 --> 02:30:57,200
object seen very low to the ground

4072
02:31:00,630 --> 02:30:59,359
you've got again the object interacting

4073
02:31:02,389 --> 02:31:00,640
with the environment

4074
02:31:04,389 --> 02:31:02,399
and the names of some of the witnesses

4075
02:31:06,550 --> 02:31:04,399
escaped me at the moment but you've got

4076
02:31:07,910 --> 02:31:06,560
the uh car engine stalling that sort of

4077
02:31:09,910 --> 02:31:07,920
thing and the one guy talked about how

4078
02:31:12,070 --> 02:31:09,920
he jumped out of his car as the engine

4079
02:31:13,670 --> 02:31:12,080
stalled the thing flew overhead you've

4080
02:31:16,070 --> 02:31:13,680
got the

4081
02:31:17,990 --> 02:31:16,080
photoelectric cells apparently reacting

4082
02:31:19,429 --> 02:31:18,000
in some of the towns that could be

4083
02:31:20,550 --> 02:31:19,439
explained by a very bright meteor

4084
02:31:21,990 --> 02:31:20,560
because if you've seen on the some of

4085
02:31:24,150 --> 02:31:22,000
the meteor compilations you've seen as

4086
02:31:25,750 --> 02:31:24,160
the meteor goes over the photoelectric

4087
02:31:27,670 --> 02:31:25,760
cell lights go out and then they come

4088
02:31:29,349 --> 02:31:27,680
back on so that may be explainable but

4089
02:31:31,830 --> 02:31:29,359
other lights in the city shouldn't react

4090
02:31:34,469 --> 02:31:31,840
that way so the the utah end of it is

4091
02:31:36,630 --> 02:31:34,479
still very interesting but i'm afraid

4092
02:31:38,870 --> 02:31:36,640
when we get to the las vegas end of it

4093
02:31:40,389 --> 02:31:38,880
we may have a legitimate explanation for

4094
02:31:42,070 --> 02:31:40,399
it that's interesting and i would love

4095
02:31:43,670 --> 02:31:42,080
to talk with you about it sometime and

4096
02:31:45,830 --> 02:31:43,680
kind of see what we can come up with

4097
02:31:48,630 --> 02:31:45,840
well that's fine with me as long as you

4098
02:31:49,670 --> 02:31:48,640
bring a sack of money oh dear okay i'll

4099
02:31:51,110 --> 02:31:49,680
save up

4100
02:31:54,150 --> 02:31:51,120
it doesn't have to be a big sack you

4101
02:31:56,309 --> 02:31:54,160
understand okay maybe like my piggy bank

4102
02:31:59,030 --> 02:31:56,319
hey that's good works for me a sack of

4103
02:32:00,870 --> 02:31:59,040
pennies work right it weighs a lot

4104
02:32:05,830 --> 02:32:00,880
well if it's the wheat back pennies yeah

4105
02:32:11,590 --> 02:32:08,950
sure sure now looking at all this though

4106
02:32:14,469 --> 02:32:11,600
nothing here with regard to what we've

4107
02:32:15,429 --> 02:32:14,479
unlearned about roswell deters you from

4108
02:32:18,630 --> 02:32:15,439
your

4109
02:32:20,950 --> 02:32:18,640
theory still that at least some ufos are

4110
02:32:22,469 --> 02:32:20,960
extraterrestrial spacecraft right

4111
02:32:24,469 --> 02:32:22,479
there's a possibility that roswell is

4112
02:32:26,389 --> 02:32:24,479
extraterrestrial i'm just saying that

4113
02:32:29,030 --> 02:32:26,399
looking at the evidences that exist

4114
02:32:31,910 --> 02:32:29,040
today is very problematic some of the

4115
02:32:33,750 --> 02:32:31,920
cases suggest alien visitation and i

4116
02:32:36,790 --> 02:32:33,760
will say i don't think alien visitation

4117
02:32:38,389 --> 02:32:36,800
is nearly as frequent as it's alleged in

4118
02:32:40,309 --> 02:32:38,399
the ufo literature

4119
02:32:41,510 --> 02:32:40,319
but i think there is alien visitation

4120
02:32:43,830 --> 02:32:41,520
going on

4121
02:32:46,389 --> 02:32:43,840
how much through the years has been

4122
02:32:48,870 --> 02:32:46,399
possible test aircraft or just some kind

4123
02:32:51,750 --> 02:32:48,880
of government disinformation nonsense

4124
02:32:54,230 --> 02:32:51,760
you look at some of the the aircraft the

4125
02:32:55,590 --> 02:32:54,240
sr-71 the blackbird if you look at that

4126
02:32:58,070 --> 02:32:55,600
from certain angles it looks very

4127
02:33:00,469 --> 02:32:58,080
ufologically it looks like a ufo i got

4128
02:33:03,270 --> 02:33:00,479
caught in my own syntax there

4129
02:33:05,030 --> 02:33:03,280
looks like it's a ufological object and

4130
02:33:08,389 --> 02:33:05,040
its speed was tremendous and this is

4131
02:33:11,990 --> 02:33:08,399
1950s technology for god's sakes and so

4132
02:33:13,429 --> 02:33:12,000
we jump forward 50 years i know that the

4133
02:33:15,270 --> 02:33:13,439
f-111

4134
02:33:17,349 --> 02:33:15,280
seen from certain angles looks

4135
02:33:18,790 --> 02:33:17,359
for everything like a dome disc and if

4136
02:33:22,389 --> 02:33:18,800
it's got its landing gear down with a

4137
02:33:23,510 --> 02:33:22,399
tripod land gear the um b2 bomber has

4138
02:33:25,590 --> 02:33:23,520
got a very

4139
02:33:27,349 --> 02:33:25,600
bizarre look to it when you see it from

4140
02:33:30,070 --> 02:33:27,359
certain angles so i think our technology

4141
02:33:32,150 --> 02:33:30,080
can account for a number of ufo

4142
02:33:33,830 --> 02:33:32,160
sightings i think there's people who uh

4143
02:33:35,910 --> 02:33:33,840
see things in the sky that they just

4144
02:33:37,830 --> 02:33:35,920
don't understand i've always said you

4145
02:33:39,190 --> 02:33:37,840
know if you've got a ufo sighting from

4146
02:33:40,469 --> 02:33:39,200
some guy three o'clock in the morning

4147
02:33:42,790 --> 02:33:40,479
you happen to be outside and he looks up

4148
02:33:44,790 --> 02:33:42,800
and there's a light going across the sky

4149
02:33:46,790 --> 02:33:44,800
and it's a private private plane doing

4150
02:33:47,830 --> 02:33:46,800
the guy's getting nighttime vfr or

4151
02:33:49,590 --> 02:33:47,840
something and he's got his landing

4152
02:33:51,110 --> 02:33:49,600
height on for some reason and the wind's

4153
02:33:52,790 --> 02:33:51,120
blowing the wrong direction you may not

4154
02:33:54,389 --> 02:33:52,800
hear it so you've got a light in the sky

4155
02:33:55,830 --> 02:33:54,399
with a perfectly plausible explanation

4156
02:33:57,910 --> 02:33:55,840
but you'll never find it because there'd

4157
02:33:59,910 --> 02:33:57,920
be no documentation to

4158
02:34:01,590 --> 02:33:59,920
look for especially if it's if it's

4159
02:34:03,429 --> 02:34:01,600
single witness you know you look you

4160
02:34:05,110 --> 02:34:03,439
have to look at multiple witness cases

4161
02:34:07,110 --> 02:34:05,120
you have to look for multiple chains of

4162
02:34:08,389 --> 02:34:07,120
evidence for us to get really into the

4163
02:34:10,550 --> 02:34:08,399
case and that's you know that's one of

4164
02:34:11,910 --> 02:34:10,560
the delights for the uh

4165
02:34:13,590 --> 02:34:11,920
level land case because you have

4166
02:34:15,910 --> 02:34:13,600
multiple witnesses and multiple chains

4167
02:34:16,870 --> 02:34:15,920
of evidence and and the same thing with

4168
02:34:18,790 --> 02:34:16,880
um

4169
02:34:20,230 --> 02:34:18,800
rental shrimp forest uh charles hart

4170
02:34:22,550 --> 02:34:20,240
hall was telling me

4171
02:34:24,550 --> 02:34:22,560
that the radiation they picked up

4172
02:34:25,910 --> 02:34:24,560
radiation and on one side of the trees

4173
02:34:27,990 --> 02:34:25,920
it was higher than on the other side of

4174
02:34:31,110 --> 02:34:28,000
the trees success suggesting the source

4175
02:34:32,070 --> 02:34:31,120
was you know uh in in the the clearing

4176
02:34:34,309 --> 02:34:32,080
there

4177
02:34:36,309 --> 02:34:34,319
so you've got uh eyewitness testimony

4178
02:34:39,349 --> 02:34:36,319
you've got their experiences you've got

4179
02:34:41,590 --> 02:34:39,359
the radiation information you've got the

4180
02:34:44,309 --> 02:34:41,600
landing gear traces that were found so

4181
02:34:45,429 --> 02:34:44,319
you've got some very good uh physical

4182
02:34:47,590 --> 02:34:45,439
evidence

4183
02:34:50,230 --> 02:34:47,600
there as well and i you know if you go

4184
02:34:52,389 --> 02:34:50,240
to my blog you can click on that listen

4185
02:34:54,550 --> 02:34:52,399
to halt's uh interview which should be

4186
02:34:56,389 --> 02:34:54,560
up in in uh sometime later today so

4187
02:34:58,790 --> 02:34:56,399
you've got all of that stuff available

4188
02:34:59,830 --> 02:34:58,800
to you plenty of cases to check out for

4189
02:35:01,990 --> 02:34:59,840
sure

4190
02:35:03,910 --> 02:35:02,000
yes many many cases

4191
02:35:05,590 --> 02:35:03,920
so maybe there still is a cosmic

4192
02:35:06,469 --> 02:35:05,600
watergate but you don't expect to ever

4193
02:35:08,150 --> 02:35:06,479
see

4194
02:35:09,670 --> 02:35:08,160
and i don't either any kind of

4195
02:35:14,070 --> 02:35:09,680
disclosure

4196
02:35:16,309 --> 02:35:14,080
if they land and say here we are there's

4197
02:35:18,309 --> 02:35:16,319
going to be disclosure if they don't do

4198
02:35:21,110 --> 02:35:18,319
that i can see no motivation for the

4199
02:35:23,910 --> 02:35:21,120
government to reveal what they know

4200
02:35:26,630 --> 02:35:23,920
well that really sucks doesn't it

4201
02:35:30,309 --> 02:35:26,640
kevin do you do kevin do you subscribe

4202
02:35:32,870 --> 02:35:30,319
at all to any kind of high strange or

4203
02:35:36,070 --> 02:35:32,880
a paranormal aspect to

4204
02:35:38,630 --> 02:35:36,080
you any ufo cases or are you are you

4205
02:35:41,270 --> 02:35:38,640
solely kind of a nuts and bolts guy

4206
02:35:43,429 --> 02:35:41,280
i am a nuts and bolts guy which is not

4207
02:35:45,190 --> 02:35:43,439
to say that some of the uh cases can't

4208
02:35:46,710 --> 02:35:45,200
ex be explained in some kind of

4209
02:35:48,070 --> 02:35:46,720
paranormal phenomena that we don't

4210
02:35:49,830 --> 02:35:48,080
understand

4211
02:35:51,110 --> 02:35:49,840
so yeah there's always that possibility

4212
02:35:52,389 --> 02:35:51,120
i've often said you know people say to

4213
02:35:53,590 --> 02:35:52,399
me well what do you think it is i said

4214
02:35:55,670 --> 02:35:53,600
well i think it's probably alien

4215
02:35:57,510 --> 02:35:55,680
visitation but there's a possibility

4216
02:35:59,429 --> 02:35:57,520
it's time travelers from our future i

4217
02:36:01,590 --> 02:35:59,439
think that's a very low possibility but

4218
02:36:03,510 --> 02:36:01,600
it's a possibility could it be some kind

4219
02:36:05,590 --> 02:36:03,520
of interdimensional problem yeah it

4220
02:36:07,190 --> 02:36:05,600
certainly could be um you know i don't

4221
02:36:09,349 --> 02:36:07,200
know how to explain that but it

4222
02:36:11,429 --> 02:36:09,359
certainly could be some kind of uh

4223
02:36:13,510 --> 02:36:11,439
interdimensional

4224
02:36:15,429 --> 02:36:13,520
crossover something like that it could

4225
02:36:18,950 --> 02:36:15,439
have something to do with psychic

4226
02:36:20,870 --> 02:36:18,960
ability but i think the probable answer

4227
02:36:22,790 --> 02:36:20,880
is going to end up as extraterrestrial

4228
02:36:24,950 --> 02:36:22,800
and it may be a combination of all those

4229
02:36:26,550 --> 02:36:24,960
things i prefer the time travelers

4230
02:36:29,030 --> 02:36:26,560
because that's the most fun explanation

4231
02:36:31,590 --> 02:36:29,040
but well interdimensional it could be

4232
02:36:34,630 --> 02:36:31,600
the real life equivalent of mixtures

4233
02:36:36,950 --> 02:36:34,640
pitolic the character from dc comics the

4234
02:36:38,710 --> 02:36:36,960
fifth dimensional jokester who has to

4235
02:36:41,590 --> 02:36:38,720
say his name backwards and don't ask me

4236
02:36:42,870 --> 02:36:41,600
to pronounce that in order to return i

4237
02:36:45,670 --> 02:36:42,880
was surprised you could pronounce it

4238
02:36:47,510 --> 02:36:45,680
forward so mixes pitolic yeah i had to

4239
02:36:50,150 --> 02:36:47,520
look it up there two different ways and

4240
02:36:52,710 --> 02:36:50,160
the reason is that on a dc comics tv

4241
02:36:55,349 --> 02:36:52,720
show this year we'll see him well i

4242
02:36:58,150 --> 02:36:55,359
won't but you don't watch those shows i

4243
02:36:59,590 --> 02:36:58,160
do okay kevin randall if we're

4244
02:37:01,670 --> 02:36:59,600
interested in more of your stuff and we

4245
02:37:03,910 --> 02:37:01,680
know you have a radio show now where can

4246
02:37:06,309 --> 02:37:03,920
we find it the radio show you can go to

4247
02:37:07,990 --> 02:37:06,319
xzbn.net

4248
02:37:09,590 --> 02:37:08,000
and you can find a link to all the shows

4249
02:37:12,110 --> 02:37:09,600
that have been up there you can go to my

4250
02:37:14,309 --> 02:37:12,120
blog which is

4251
02:37:16,309 --> 02:37:14,319
kevinrental.blogspot.com and just scroll

4252
02:37:18,150 --> 02:37:16,319
through there because every every time i

4253
02:37:19,510 --> 02:37:18,160
do a show there's a link to it and you

4254
02:37:21,429 --> 02:37:19,520
can watch it on youtube you can go to

4255
02:37:23,270 --> 02:37:21,439
youtube and type in my name or type in a

4256
02:37:25,510 --> 02:37:23,280
different perspective and you can

4257
02:37:28,630 --> 02:37:25,520
listen to all the shows there and you

4258
02:37:31,270 --> 02:37:28,640
can go to amazon and buy my book and

4259
02:37:33,110 --> 02:37:31,280
get me an extra quarter that way i think

4260
02:37:35,150 --> 02:37:33,120
eric where can we find more of your

4261
02:37:37,190 --> 02:37:35,160
stuff oh i'm on

4262
02:37:39,349 --> 02:37:37,200
ufoclassified.com my show is friday

4263
02:37:42,309 --> 02:37:39,359
nights on kcor

4264
02:37:44,950 --> 02:37:42,319
and that is from five o'clock mountain

4265
02:37:46,469 --> 02:37:44,960
standard time to seven

4266
02:37:48,389 --> 02:37:46,479
so i'm on every week

4267
02:37:50,389 --> 02:37:48,399
you can find us on twitter look for the

4268
02:37:52,950 --> 02:37:50,399
powercast the powercast is on twitter

4269
02:37:55,750 --> 02:37:52,960
the powercast is on facebook with a

4270
02:37:58,710 --> 02:37:55,760
couple of fan clubs being a grouping a

4271
02:38:00,630 --> 02:37:58,720
community and i know there's a precise

4272
02:38:03,030 --> 02:38:00,640
definition for that but definitely

4273
02:38:04,790 --> 02:38:03,040
there's no fake news involved we also

4274
02:38:07,349 --> 02:38:04,800
have that second radio show we want you

4275
02:38:10,469 --> 02:38:07,359
to hear called after the powercast and

4276
02:38:13,030 --> 02:38:10,479
after the powercast is available only

4277
02:38:17,429 --> 02:38:13,040
if you subscribe to the powercast plus

4278
02:38:19,270 --> 02:38:17,439
go to plus dot the powercast.com

4279
02:38:20,870 --> 02:38:19,280
and you'll learn all the information we

4280
02:38:22,950 --> 02:38:20,880
give you a commercial free version of

4281
02:38:25,429 --> 02:38:22,960
this show with better quality audio

4282
02:38:26,389 --> 02:38:25,439
after powercast and more the price

4283
02:38:28,389 --> 02:38:26,399
starts

4284
02:38:33,990 --> 02:38:28,399
at just a dollar 49 a week

4285
02:38:38,070 --> 02:38:36,550
erica luke scogs makai kevin randall

4286
02:38:40,790 --> 02:38:38,080
thank you all

4287
02:38:43,990 --> 02:38:40,800
for being with us on the powercast

4288
02:38:45,429 --> 02:38:44,000
thank you thank you jean as always

4289
02:38:46,550 --> 02:38:45,439
and it's been more fun than getting

4290
02:38:47,910 --> 02:38:46,560
dirty

4291
02:38:51,460 --> 02:38:47,920
that's comforting

4292
02:39:04,469 --> 02:38:51,470
oh i don't know

4293
02:39:10,230 --> 02:39:07,270
the paracast featuring jean steinberg

4294
02:39:13,190 --> 02:39:10,240
and christopher o'brien is a copyrighted

4295
02:39:14,950 --> 02:39:13,200
presentation of making the impossible

4296
02:39:19,030 --> 02:39:14,960
incorporated